Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[BurlOak]

His comments made me wonder if he even knows about the study. After all, it has hardly been a priority for TTC to date, and Byford must still have a lot of "reading in" to do.

I thought the official TTC line was that all other options to improve the capacity of the Yonge line need to be done before the DRL is considered.

I think this is an important step that the TTC has made in realizing (or admitting) the need for the DRL. Maybe TTC can work with Metrolinx to find an alignment that serves the function of a DRL and a GO/Union Relief Line. This could also realistically recieve funding since the Province (Metrolinx) is already on board.

 

[rbt]

I thought the official TTC line was that all other options to improve the capacity of the Yonge line need to be done before the DRL is considered.

Actually, more importantly, Byford says both Yonge improvements and DRL are necessary (not one or the other). It was regularly proposed that we redirect the ATO money and Bloor station expansion money to the DRL instead of performing those two items.

Byford seems more optomistic that both operations and capital funding will grow. It will be interesting to see where he stands after a few more budgets which defer basic maintenance work and tighten the operations budget.

 

[Standard]

Actually, more importantly, Byford says both Yonge improvements and DRL are necessary (not one or the other). It was regularly proposed that we redirect the ATO money and Bloor station expansion money to the DRL instead of performing those two items.

Byford seems more optomistic that both operations and capital funding will grow. It will be interesting to see where he stands after a few more budgets which defer basic maintenance work and tighten the operations budget.

I hope the plans for the massive rebuild and extension of Bloor-Yonge are cancelled and the funds moved to support the DRL. The DRL provides so many more benefits in addition to relieving Bloor-Yonge.

The ATO scheme I agree with as all the subway lines will eventually be upgraded with it to allow subway frequency improvements and allow subway platform doors to be installed.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They'll probably start the EA process in 2020, get funding in 2025, start construction in 2035, and then open by 2045. Any extension on both ends would open sometime in the 2060s.

 

[Palma]

They'll probably start the EA process in 2020, get funding in 2025, start construction in 2035, and then open by 2045. Any extension on both ends would open sometime in the 2060s.

I will be dead by then unless I make it to 100

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They'll probably start the EA process in 2020, get funding in 2025, start construction in 2035, and then open by 2045. Any extension on both ends would open sometime in the 2060s.

I'm hoping that you're joking.

 

[rbt]

They'll probably start the EA process in 2020, get funding in 2025, start construction in 2035, and then open by 2045. Any extension on both ends would open sometime in the 2060s.

The most important part of Thursdays vote was the direction to staff (City General Manager and TTC CEO) to prepare a 50 year plan including funding options with consulation from Metrolinx by this fall.

I believe it passed by a large majority (40+ in favour).


While we know the Mayor is not in favour of taxation for transit (he was not in favour of the parking tax) most of the councillors are if it is 1) transit specific and not general revenues and 2) will enable subway expansion.

I expect to see staff come back with a funding strategy to build both Sheppard West from Yonge and DRL East by 2025. Provided there are no severe adverse effects from the new tax, I expect it will pass.

 

[gweed123]

The most important part of Thursdays vote was the direction to staff (City General Manager and TTC CEO) to prepare a 50 year plan including funding options with consulation from Metrolinx by this fall.

I believe it passed by a large majority (40+ in favour).


While we know the Mayor is not in favour of taxation for transit (he was not in favour of the parking tax) most of the councillors are if it is 1) transit specific and not general revenues and 2) will enable subway expansion.

I expect to see staff come back with a funding strategy to build both Sheppard West from Yonge and DRL East by 2025. Provided there are no severe adverse effects from the new tax, I expect it will pass.

I would love that!

It has something in it for everybody. Ford gets his Sheppard extension (even if it's on the wrong end), suburbanites get suburban subway expansion, and downtown gets a much-needed subway.

Personally, I would like to see Sheppard West first. I know this sounds weird, but hear me out:

Sheppard West has already been studied, and it's a relatively short project, so if they can get a financing plan and engineering done quickly, they can use the TBMs from Spadina.

They can then start the DRL and North Yonge a bit after that, because those are larger projects that will require more front-end lead time.

Again, I know this may sound weird coming from a guy who has lobbied so much for the DRL, but this is a purely technical decision, and how to squeeze as much transit expansion into as short of a timeframe as possible.

Naturally, I would like the planning and design to begin for all 3 of these projects the moment that the funding scheme is announced, I just think that given the higher complexity of the other two, that Sheppard West will end up with shovels in the ground first.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed:

Except that the financing Sheppard West first will probably stress the revenue stream unless the latter is really generous (which is by no means assured) and push back DRL even further. In effect, you won't be squeezing as much transit into as short a timeframe as possible - you will be completing an easier project that has no real urgency first and push back the most important project later when the need is already undeniable (and will only get worse when the various LRTs goes on stream). It might be convenient for the reasons you've stated, but it isn't my idea of how it should be prioritized.

AoD

 

[rbt]

gweed:

Except that the financing Sheppard West first will probably stress the revenue stream unless the latter is really generous (which is by no means assured) and push back DRL even further.

I think Sheppard West would be 3rd actually but having it high on the priority list would allow new taxes/tools to get buy-in from the likes of Kelly, Del Grande, Parker, etc. Having a large majority (35+ votes) in favour of taxation earmarked for transit makes re-election politics easier.

If Toronto manages to finance the DRL by 2014 I expect the province (via Metrolinx) to fund the Yonge line extension by implementing a very similar taxation policy region wide if McGuinty is still in power. The federal government has expressed interest in Yonge extension too and will kick in 1/3rd of that (Peter Kent, current Minister of Environment, is located in Thornhill? Flaherity has also expressed an interest in this extension).

A large majority of this austerity oriented Toronto Council asking the province for new transit specific tax/toll is a game changer for the entire region. Go Transit would probably benefit the most actually.

 

[gweed123]

I think Sheppard West would be 3rd actually but having it high on the priority list would allow new taxes/tools to get buy-in from the likes of Kelly, Del Grande, Parker, etc. Having a large majority (35+ votes) in favour of taxation earmarked for transit makes re-election politics easier.

If Toronto manages to finance the DRL by 2014 I expect the province (via Metrolinx) to fund the Yonge line extension by implementing a very similar taxation policy region wide if McGuinty is still in power. The federal government has expressed interest in Yonge extension too and will kick in 1/3rd of that (Peter Kent, current Minister of Environment, is located in Thornhill? Flaherity has also expressed an interest in this extension).

A large majority of this austerity oriented Toronto Council asking the province for new transit specific tax/toll is a game changer for the entire region. Go Transit would probably benefit the most actually.

Interesting analysis, and one that I certainly agree with. Sheppard needs to be tossed into the deal if we're going to get the support of the hardliners on the right.

As for the DRL, here is my idea of how to fund it:

1) Make it abundantly clear that the majority of the line will be financed through alternative revenue streams.
2) Finance the line through the following formula: 2/5 Municipal, 2/5 Provincial, 1/5 Federal
3) The day the DRL opens, a London-style congestion zone gets implemented around downtown (Spadina, Bloor, Don Valley, Lake).
4) The Province implements tolls on the 400 series highways, or even just the 401 Express if we need a less drastic approach.
5) Use the toll revenues to pay down the interest and some of the principle on the debts. Congestion zone goes to Municipal portion, 400 series highways goes to Provincial portion.

I think that the assumption that a lot of people are making is that the revenue from these revenue tools needs to be entirely raised up front. The problem is that building up enough cash in that fund to do anything useful with it is going to take years. Why not use the on-going revenue coming from those sources to pay down the construction debt instead? Yes, it may cost us a bit more in the long run, but we'll get the projects years quicker than we would if we had to wait for the money to come in first. Think of it as like using a credit card vs using a debit card.

 

[Fred.S]

Interesting analysis, and one that I certainly agree with. Sheppard needs to be tossed into the deal if we're going to get the support of the hardliners on the right.

As for the DRL, here is my idea of how to fund it:

1) Make it abundantly clear that the majority of the line will be financed through alternative revenue streams.
2) Finance the line through the following formula: 2/5 Municipal, 2/5 Provincial, 1/5 Federal
3) The day the DRL opens, a London-style congestion zone gets implemented around downtown (Spadina, Bloor, Don Valley, Lake).
4) The Province implements tolls on the 400 series highways, or even just the 401 Express if we need a less drastic approach.
5) Use the toll revenues to pay down the interest and some of the principle on the debts. Congestion zone goes to Municipal portion, 400 series highways goes to Provincial portion.

I think that the assumption that a lot of people are making is that the revenue from these revenue tools needs to be entirely raised up front. The problem is that building up enough cash in that fund to do anything useful with it is going to take years. Why not use the on-going revenue coming from those sources to pay down the construction debt instead? Yes, it may cost us a bit more in the long run, but we'll get the projects years quicker than we would if we had to wait for the money to come in first. Think of it as like using a credit card vs using a debit card.

That's a good plan. Though I'd probably toll the Gardiner and DVP instead of the Downtown congestion charge. As well, sell development rights over the stations where possible.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Interesting analysis, and one that I certainly agree with. Sheppard needs to be tossed into the deal if we're going to get the support of the hardliners on the right.

As for the DRL, here is my idea of how to fund it:

1) Make it abundantly clear that the majority of the line will be financed through alternative revenue streams.
2) Finance the line through the following formula: 2/5 Municipal, 2/5 Provincial, 1/5 Federal
3) The day the DRL opens, a London-style congestion zone gets implemented around downtown (Spadina, Bloor, Don Valley, Lake).
4) The Province implements tolls on the 400 series highways, or even just the 401 Express if we need a less drastic approach.
5) Use the toll revenues to pay down the interest and some of the principle on the debts. Congestion zone goes to Municipal portion, 400 series highways goes to Provincial portion.

I think that the assumption that a lot of people are making is that the revenue from these revenue tools needs to be entirely raised up front. The problem is that building up enough cash in that fund to do anything useful with it is going to take years. Why not use the on-going revenue coming from those sources to pay down the construction debt instead? Yes, it may cost us a bit more in the long run, but we'll get the projects years quicker than we would if we had to wait for the money to come in first. Think of it as like using a credit card vs using a debit card.

I'm not a big fan of the congestion zone. It would just divide downtown and the suburbs even further.

 

[Palma]

I
If Toronto manages to finance the DRL by 2014 I expect the province (via Metrolinx) to fund the Yonge line extension by implementing a very similar taxation policy region wide if McGuinty is still in power. The federal government has expressed interest in Yonge extension too and will kick in 1/3rd of that (Peter Kent, current Minister of Environment, is located in Thornhill? Flaherity has also expressed an interest in this extension).
A large majority of this austerity oriented Toronto Council asking the province for new transit specific tax/toll is a game changer for the entire region. Go Transit would probably benefit the most actually.

McGuinty will not be in power. Of course the Conservatives would express interest in Yonge extension - because it goes into suburbia - their stronghold. They are pulling a page out of McGuinty's book and fund further out of the city. This is what happens and Metrolinz is yet not in control of Toronto transit but it shows where their priority will lie - building subways further out of the city to gain votes as property values will rise and people will only need to pay a flat fare.

All those councillors that state that downtown is preventing suburbs from getting subways when in reality they not only have more but have people who use them only to get to work and back

 

[M II A II R II K]

There's also that development levy for those on the route and especially those who develop because of the new line like Crossrail's doing.