Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[kkgg7]

Jack Layton led the charge against the DRL because he believed it would bring about more development at stations and in the downtown core.

What? Was he crazy (no offense)?
If downtown core shouldn't be developed, what should be? What kind of city was he envisioning, a village full of mom and pop stores and no building is over 3 storey high?
Thank God the NDP will never come in to power in this country. They are backward thinking in every aspect.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Yes we want density and transit and Manhattan canyons. And plus we could convert Queen East from it's ghettoized format to look more like Yonge St. around Summerhill Station area with a subway under it.

 

[sixrings]

What? Was he crazy (no offense)?
If downtown core shouldn't be developed, what should be? What kind of city was he envisioning, a village full of mom and pop stores and no building is over 3 storey high?
Thank God the NDP will never come in to power in this country. They are backward thinking in every aspect.

well i dont think he anticipated mcmansions everywhere outside the core. instead he probably had the ides that the semis and row townhouses of the city would continue to spread out. if that happened we would be much more like a european city with dense neighborhoods but not necessarly highrises. instead what happened was we got detached mc mansions with apartments in a park in the suburbs and a downtown of highrises.

that being said 2012 toronto needs a drl to at least start at pape if not eglinton. however just a word of caution. every subway station that is a interchange station is heavily developed with mostly highrises,union y&s y&b st george. pape would be completely transformed if a drl station went through it. its necessary but it will change the neighborhood.

 

[Tulse]

every subway station that is a interchange station is heavily developed with mostly highrises,union y&s y&b st george.

That's not at all true, as neither Spadina nor St. George are at heavily developed intersections. Nothing at Spadina is taller than three stories: it has commercial lowrises on the northeast corner, a park on the southeast corner, and lowrise apartment building on the northwest corner. The Jewish Community Centre is the only major building at that intersection, and even it is only three stories.

The St. George station area is a bit more developed, but the highest building there (the UofT residence) is a relatively recent addition. I don't know that the Bata Shoe Museum counts as a "highrise", and as far as I know the mansion on the northeast corner and the building on the northwest corner have both been there since before the station.

In other words, I don't think that interchanges necessarily mean heavy development, and Pape and Danforth currently has development density comparable to (if not greater than) that at Spadina Station.

 

[k10ery]

That's not at all true, as neither Spadina nor St. George are at heavily developed intersections. Nothing at Spadina is taller than three stories: it has commercial lowrises on the northeast corner, a park on the southeast corner, and lowrise apartment building on the northwest corner. The Jewish Community Centre is the only major building at that intersection, and even it is only three stories.

The St. George station area is a bit more developed, but the highest building there (the UofT residence) is a relatively recent addition. I don't know that the Bata Shoe Museum counts as a "highrise", and as far as I know the mansion on the northeast corner and the building on the northwest corner have both been there since before the station.

In other words, I don't think that interchanges necessarily mean heavy development, and Pape and Danforth currently has development density comparable to (if not greater than) that at Spadina Station.

You're being a bit too literal. Think Walmer, Bedford, and Prince Arthur.

 

[Tulse]

You're being a bit too literal. Think Walmer, Bedford, and Prince Arthur.

Perhaps you're right, although I'd argue that the presence of a 50,000 student university in the area has far more to do with the density than the subway interchanges. And in any case I'd hardly say that Spadina and St. George are "mostly highrises", as there a lot of detatched single-family homes and lowrise apartments in the area. My real point was that an interchange doesn't have to result in the density of a Bloor/Yonge or Union, and that Pape and Danforth already has some density.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The bank on the corner could become a facade for a highrise condo.

 

[sixrings]

Perhaps you're right, although I'd argue that the presence of a 50,000 student university in the area has far more to do with the density than the subway interchanges. And in any case I'd hardly say that Spadina and St. George are "mostly highrises", as there a lot of detatched single-family homes and lowrise apartments in the area. My real point was that an interchange doesn't have to result in the density of a Bloor/Yonge or Union, and that Pape and Danforth already has some density.

when I was reffering to St George I was really meaning from Bedford to University and Bloor. Look at 1 bedford, the four seasons redevelopment, xhibit, the once proposed museum condo. These are huge developments in comparison to what is at pape.

I agree that the bank on Pape would make an amazing condo podium.

 

[ssiguy2]

There are only 2 options..............either use the existing rail ROW from probably Pape to Union or go down Queen {or a block north or south of it} and that's it.
All this talk of King or Front is a complete waste of time because there is something that makes those routes impossible.....PATH.
Toronto subway numbers are already extremely high per km compared to every other city on the planet so I can't imagine the price tag of trying to tunnel under the PATH system. Besides being incredibly expensive it would be a logistical nightmare and take for ever to build.
Some may even say Dundas maybe an option although I don;t think it's ideal but King or Front are out of the question. The city made no future plans for a King subway and thus PATH has spread like wildfire while Queen already has an underground station.
Personally I prefer Queen but Union would be fine but only if the use the current rail ROW by widening it or elevation. Of course that brings up a whole new can of worms............it couldn't be extended further west or north to eventually hook up with Bloor probably near Dundas West station. Why? Because Metrolinx got it's greasy little hands of the Georgetown Line for the Pearson rail link.
If they had a lick of sense they would electrify the line add stations and make it part of the standard subway system and take advantage of not having to build a new Union station as it will already be built.

 

[Tulse]

when I was reffering to St George I was really meaning from Bedford to University and Bloor. Look at 1 bedford, the four seasons redevelopment, xhibit, the once proposed museum condo. These are huge developments in comparison to what is at pape.

Sure, but those developments are also adjacent to Credit Card Row and near the city's largest museum and most desirable shopping area (as well as a 50,000 student university).

There is much less reason to increase density at Pape and Danforth, since the only major thing there would be the interchange itself. Again, look at Spadina, with a stretch of retail on Bloor comparable to that on Danforth. There is much less development there, even though it is not only a subway interchange but also has a link to the Spadina LRT.

My only point is that an interchange is not in itself sufficient to cause intensification, and that there isn't much else at Pape and Danforth to do so.

 

[unimaginative2]

It's hardly difficult to build a subway around a few PATH tunnels. If anything, sewers would be more of a challenge. The study in the 80s was pretty serious about designing a DRL under front. They produced a design that accommodated the PATH tunnels. The main difficulty north of Front is actually the garage under University Ave.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

It's hardly difficult to build a subway around a few PATH tunnels. If anything, sewers would be more of a challenge. The study in the 80s was pretty serious about designing a DRL under front. They produced a design that accommodated the PATH tunnels. The main difficulty north of Front is actually the garage under University Ave.

I don't see that garage playing much of role if a Font St alignment was chosen. If Wellington St was picked the line would have to be deep. I cant be 100% certain of the layout there, but the garage is 2 levels with the University Line below that. The PATH tunnels are fairly high up (typically just below street level) and shouldnt pose much of a problem to any downtown alignment.

 

[sixrings]

Sure, but those developments are also adjacent to Credit Card Row and near the city's largest museum and most desirable shopping area (as well as a 50,000 student university).

There is much less reason to increase density at Pape and Danforth, since the only major thing there would be the interchange itself. Again, look at Spadina, with a stretch of retail on Bloor comparable to that on Danforth. There is much less development there, even though it is not only a subway interchange but also has a link to the Spadina LRT.

My only point is that an interchange is not in itself sufficient to cause intensification, and that there isn't much else at Pape and Danforth to do so.

First of all people love to live beside subways because they are dependable. Living beside 2 subway stations is a dream for many people. Secondly you are acting like this area of Pape isnt desireable or isnt becoming more desireable by itself. EVen without a DRL this area is becoming more and more desirable for people who want to live close to the core and who take transit. The area is full of restaurants and shops. The area is 15 mins from downtown via bloor and yonge. It would be 10 minutes via a DRL. You can walk to yonge and bloor in 20 mins and you could bike downtown.

Pape will need to accept that once people want to live somewhere developers get their way and this will look much more like liberty village then anything currently along the danforth.

 

[sixrings]

Sure, but those developments are also adjacent to Credit Card Row and near the city's largest museum and most desirable shopping area (as well as a 50,000 student university).

There is much less reason to increase density at Pape and Danforth, since the only major thing there would be the interchange itself. Again, look at Spadina, with a stretch of retail on Bloor comparable to that on Danforth. There is much less development there, even though it is not only a subway interchange but also has a link to the Spadina LRT.

My only point is that an interchange is not in itself sufficient to cause intensification, and that there isn't much else at Pape and Danforth to do so.

First of all people love to live beside subways because they are dependable. Living beside 2 subway stations is a dream for many people. Secondly you are acting like this area of Pape isnt desireable or isnt becoming more desireable by itself. EVen without a DRL this area is becoming more and more desirable for people who want to live close to the core and who take transit. The area is full of restaurants and shops. The area is 15 mins from downtown via bloor and yonge. It would be 10 minutes via a DRL. You can walk to yonge and bloor in 20 mins and you could bike downtown.

Pape will need to accept that once people want to live somewhere developers get their way and this will look much more like liberty village then anything currently along the danforth.

BTW have you scene the development happening around St Clair West station and thats only with a street car. I cant see how someone could deny pape will explode with development no matter how much their residents complain. Yonge and Eglinton has kept most of development away but its a losing battle with LRT coming a few years from now.

 

[Tulse]

you are acting like this area of Pape isnt desireable or isnt becoming more desireable by itself.

I know it's desirable -- I live there. But it's silly to think that Greektown would have the draw that Credit Card Row has, or Yorkville, or the ROM, or UofT, much less all of them combined near St. George.