"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

[Whoaccio]

^
If the City makes the RHC extension conditional on a DRL, neither will end up happening. It isn't the provinces fault that when they handed billions over to Toronto to put a chicken in every pot and an LRT on every "avenue," the City neglected what is now being billed as the only way to save the TTC from going supernova.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

Did you ever think that some egg head in a TTC office somewhere is concocting that data? It might even be a guy who is a paid consultant and never rides the subway himself

OMG, my head just exploded.

 

[CDL.TO]

Visualizing what many have discussed, how a DRL could work with splitting the 501 and connecting to planned LRT lines (based on a Railway/Front alignment).

(I don't think this precludes a Queen's Quay East LRT. I just didn't include it.)
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[Darren B]

Looking strictly at the ridership numbers though I would submit that King or further south is the best alignment is probably best:

King + St. Andrew is approximately 112k riders.

Osgoode + Queen is approximately 77k riders.

Union is approximately 81k riders.

So King's probably the best by the numbers.

BTW, has anyone posting TTC rider stas realized that some of those riders who utilize Union might be doing so from University??? Let assume 2/5ths arrive there from University, so that leaves us with 3/5 who travel southbound on Yonge. Some of those 3/5ths might even board from stations south of Bloor...ie arrive to Queen via streetcar and then head south to Union for example. So can someome please show me why we need to have a new node at Union over servicing an existing transit corridor on Queen??? Is there some massive 24/7 activity going on west or east of Union that is curently not served by Union station? I mean other then the Queen's quay streetcar, there isnt an exisiting transit pattern. I already referenced the 72 that heads east, but thats a ghost town, and it goes directly through the Portlands, right past the distillery district.

 

[Darren B]

Visualizing what many have discussed, how a DRL could work with splitting the 501 and connecting to planned LRT lines (based on a Railway/Front alignment).

(I don't think this precludes a Queen East LRT. I just didn't include it.)

The eastern path of that configuration is already served by the 72 that goes through the EXACT same areas and then to Union. I challenge any of you pro UNion crowd to actually for once go and see someting with your own eyes instead of searching for a link on a site. Go to Pape and grab the 72 southbound, and see how it clears out after it reaches Queen/Eastern. The bus almost completly clears out. There is no existing transit pattern on the eastern portlands, and if it ever increase then it can be serviced by surface vehicles. There is nothing warranting an eastern portland link, other then a pretty map somewhere.

 

[CDL.TO]

The eastern path of that configuration is already served by the 72 that goes through the EXACT same areas and then to Union. I challenge any of you pro UNion crowd to actually for once go and see someting with your own eyes instead of searching for a link on a site. Go to Pape and grab the 72 southbound, and see how it clears out after it reaches Queen/Eastern. The bus almost completly clears out. There is no existing transit pattern on the eastern portlands, and if it ever increase then it can be serviced by surface vehicles. There is nothing warranting an eastern portland link, other then a pretty map somewhere.

It's clear that things have been getting far too personal in this thread (and I'm not just talking about Darren B). No wonder it's become the domain of only 3 or 4 forumers. There is no need for anyone to be personally attacking other forumers, accusing them of outright ignorance when they have made no sign of being so. Everyone take a chill pill, this is a discussion of subway alignments.

I'll also point out that the map was intended to illustrate how a DRL could connect to planned LRT lines and break up the 501. I've been using the same map for all the DRL advocacy work for months now because it's based upon the 1980s plan, and any anything else would be conjecture. It isn't even particularly my preferred route. But the moment you see something featuring a Union alignment, you fly off the handle.

For your information, Darren. I have ridden the 72 Pape bus on SEVERAL occasions, and have biked through the Portlands on MANY occasions.

Yes, there are no EXISTING transit patterns in the Portlands. But to completely ignore the plans for the area that have been developing for many years (and you can read all about in the Projects and Construction section) IS willful ignorance. And for that matter, the DRL on that map doesn't even run through the Portlands, which ARE served by surface transit.

By the way, I ride the 90 Vaughan bus every day. And every day it is PACKED! Even at 10pm! I mean, sometimes people get left behind on the bus platform. Clearly, by your logic, Vaughan Road needs a subway line!!! If you don't believe me, you need to open your eyes and come and actually ride it! Don't tell me that other routes are busier or now start pointing at TTC ridership levels, I know what I see and experience! (If this sort of logic works for you, it can work for everyone else as well.)

 

[Darren B]

Vaughan road? LOL...yeah thats a Queen articulated streetcar right there.

Queen is an existing pattern, while the propose development in the Portlands may or may not bring with it a transit pattern.


But yes I agree, about the need to stop the personal level of some of the responses. I wasnt the only one though.

 

[kEiThZ]

BTW, has anyone posting TTC rider stas realized that some of those riders who utilize Union might be doing so from University???

Darren you'll notice that's why I added up the ridership at both stations along each street to get a picture of the total amount of subway ridership on that street.

In this case: Union/Front: 81k, King: 112k, Queen: 77k, Dundas: 78k.

So based on these numbers alone I would probably pick King.

Let assume 2/5ths arrive there from University, so that leaves us with 3/5 who travel southbound on Yonge. Some of those 3/5ths might even board from stations south of Bloor...ie arrive to Queen via streetcar and then head south to Union for example. So can someome please show me why we need to have a new node at Union over servicing an existing transit corridor on Queen???

Your hypothetical scenario then ignores King where ridership is still far higher than Queen….highest subway and streetcar ridership in that corridor. So if I was going to split 2 corridors that would have to be King and Union/Front…not Queen and King…based purely on ridership today. If we are talking about the future, most of the CIPs Railization put up still put Queen at the northern edge while King runs right through those neighbourhoods, with Front as the southern edge…and of course some of the CIPs are entirely south of Front (Portlands). That's why I didn't buy that there was a CIP for Queen….it's simply the boundary for most of the plans with most development scheduled to take place south of it. It was based on these points that I picked Wellington (PATH/walkway connections to 3 subways) with a close second being King.

Is there some massive 24/7 activity going on west or east of Union that is curently not served by Union station? I mean other then the Queen's quay streetcar, there isnt an exisiting transit pattern. I already referenced the 72 that heads east, but thats a ghost town, and it goes directly through the Portlands, right past the distillery district.

I think as others have pointed it out before we're trying to account for the future here. Indeed if the TTC was that worried about Queen today, don't you think we'd have a Queen subway higher up on the list instead of falling in the 25 year plan with the hope of it being grafted on to a DRL? Instead, it's clear that the TTC considers a LRT (or three) to Malvern a far higher priority. There's also the extensions into York region that take precedence. The only reason the DRL might get bumped up is to getting better use out of the half billion or so that we might have to spend relieving Yonge/Bloor. I am betting that the TTC probably sees some kind of St.Clair ROW type solution to Queen in the near future with the hope that the subway is used to service neighbourhoods far and wide through the core. And regardless of alignment, Queen still ends up with a minimum of 4 subway stations along its length.

 

[cacruden]

Although I have preferences on which alignments I would prefer, the line should be picked based on a combination of current density AND potential development density. If we start the process to build a line today, the quickest it will open is 3 years - more likely 5+. Development will immediately take the new subway into consideration in deciding what development they will start. You will likely see fairly high volume traffic on any line built, and it will likely grow quickly based on people changing their commuting habits - and new development. The first time I travelled to Thailand was probably 2003/2004, the new BTS skytrain was new and traffic on it was light (and mostly foreign). The BTS skytrain is now packed and well travelled most of the day (but still has room to expand - length of train and timing). But it gives an indication that travel patterns change rapidly to take advantage of efficient travel.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Vaughan road? LOL...yeah thats a Queen articulated streetcar right there.

Queen is an existing pattern, while the propose development in the Portlands may or may not bring with it a transit pattern.

If the existence of crowded vehicles is the main qualification for a subway line, then pretty much every suburban arterial route (and some non-arterials) qualifies for a subway line...particularly all the ones that are already busier than the Queen streetcar. How frequent are these crowded vehicles and where are the people going?

Everyone's assuming a DRL along Queen would actually relieve the line, but the DRL may be built replacing only about 3km of Queen, and it may do so with very few stops.

 

[prosperegal]

A problem with a Queen alignment is that the Queen portion will only run along certain parts of Queen East and West. A completely separate line might have to be built if one wants to extend Queen further east or west.

 

[cacruden]

^ I view the DRL as only the first part of the building of the line - it does not have to be viewed as just EW, but a much wider U which will bring people down from Northern Toronto instead of funneling them to YUS. In other words, the south of bloor portion is phase I - which will draw off some of the traffic off of YUS. The further north, the end of that line goes, the more that is pulled away from YUS.... and the more distributed the traffic is.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Did you ever think that some egg head in a TTC office somewhere is concocting that data? It might even be a guy who is a paid consultant and never rides the subway himself

I 'concocted' that data for two years working in the TTC's Service Planning department, from on vehicle riding counts and off vehicle standing counts. They are not feigned in any way.

I'm now a paid consultant.

At all times I have not owned a car and ride the subway, and the TTC, daily.

What the heck is your background to make slanderous claims against the results of sometimes painstaking work?

 

[prosperegal]

^ I view the DRL as only the first part of the building of the line - it does not have to be viewed as just EW, but a much wider U which will bring people down from Northern Toronto instead of funneling them to YUS. In other words, the south of bloor portion is phase I - which will draw off some of the traffic off of YUS. The further north, the end of that line goes, the more that is pulled away from YUS.... and the more distributed the traffic is.

So are we talking interlining tracks? Because that's what you're going to need to do if you want to go further east or west.

 

[dunkalunk]

After reading some comments on this thread, and entertaining the possibility of a Queen LRT, I have decided to create a new alignment for the DRL. I have also included TTC streetcar, subway and LRT in addition to GO stations to show interconnectivity.


Link to new map.

Stations from West to East:
Bloor-Dundas GO
Queen West GO (at Roncesvalles)
Strachan Ave
Bathurst
Spadina
Simcoe (connects wit St. Andrew)
Financial District (connects with Union, King)
St. Lawrence
Parliament
Cherry GO (connects with Portlands LRT)
DeGrassi (at Queen)
Gerrard GO
Pape

Alignment from West to East:
Dundas-Roncesvalles-Queen-Rail Corridor-Wellington-Parliament-Rail Corridor-Pape