"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

[CDL.TO]

It's worth reinterating that a subway train cannot make tight 90 degree turns like a car or streetcar. Check out this image from Steve Munro's blog of a subway curve radius. Practically takes up the full distance from Dundas to Queen.

 

[dunkalunk]

It really depends on speed of the train and technology used. These curves would be relatively close to stations, so speed would not be an issue. Besides, aren't there curves like these in the area around St. George?

 

[Chuck]

I disagree with using Union Station's high ridership numbers to justify a connection with the DRL. I travel south on Yonge during the morning rush, often to Union. Based purely on observation, King and Dundas are tied for having the greatest number of people getting off the southbound trains. For third place, I would say that Queen has a slight edge, and Union is fourth. Union easily has the most boardings, but by default, these trips are all in the reverse peak direction.

Union Station's high ridership can be attributed to the reverse direction commuting of GO passengers. As such, connecting the DRL to Union would provide a relatively small benefit to existing TTC customers, and even less a benefit to those who actually do board at Union (GO riders) because their destinations are not accessible by DRL.

Even if one disregards the presence of the 501 streetcar, a Queen alignment still offers the greatest potential to offer existing TTC riders a chance to walk to their destination rather than transfer back onto the YUS. If the DRL also stopped at Queen and Bay, the heart of Bay St. would be about a 4 minute walk to a DRL station, as would City Hall and the Eaton Centre. And, since it's me writing this reply, I'll also add that with express trains, downtown could be only 4 stops from Pape.

 

[Whoaccio]

If the existence of crowded vehicles is the main qualification for a subway line, then pretty much every suburban arterial route (and some non-arterials) qualifies for a subway line...particularly all the ones that are already busier than the Queen streetcar. How frequent are these crowded vehicles and where are the people going?

Its not the only qualification but suitability of existing services clearly is a qualification when you decide to spend billions of dollars that will inevitably cannibalize some existing services. The reason of crowding should also be a consideration when considering alternatives. If the Queen car is deemed dysfunctional due in part to road congestion, then adding more and more cars to relieve vehicle crowding will only further congest the road. Its not like this logic is being selectively applied to Queen St. The main reason the Eglinton LRT is being built as a quasi subway isn't because of its gargantuan ridership, it is because the problematic section of the route is too narrow and congested to accommodate more buses or any kind of surface ROW.

The main qualification for choosing which route gets billions spent in subway should be how much money it will bring the TTC. Taking the DRL concept to its most extreme, some kind of non stop bypass subway from Pape-Union, the TTC wont see a noticeable increase in revenue because it is just providing a premium service for already existing customers.

Everyone's assuming a DRL along Queen would actually relieve the line, but the DRL may be built replacing only about 3km of Queen, and it may do so with very few stops.

Everyone is assuming a lot. It tends to go with the territory of discussing fantasy projects. I've never been under the assumption from even Queen's biggest fan boys that they favor some kind of limited stop reliever along Queen in between Yonge and the Don River. There has always been an implicit assumption that, at least in the end, a Queen subway should stretch from about Pape or so to before High Park, with typical urban subway stop spacing, which certainly would relieve a great chunk of the Queen car.

Is that a fair assumption? Probably not. This entire thread is predicated on the unfair assumption that the DRL is the teleological results of transit in the City.

 

[Darren B]

CDL.TO, not a good day to be on the 90 near Oakwood with the shooting in the area. I was looking to buy up there in late 2006. But after hearing about the level of crime in the area, I settled with life in east york / beaches. If I did live up there I'd still be advocating for a Queen allignment.

 

[Disparishun]

Based purely on observation, King and Dundas are tied for having the greatest number of people getting off the southbound trains. For third place, I would say that Queen has a slight edge, and Union is fourth. Union easily has the most boardings, but by default, these trips are all in the reverse peak direction.

College has a lot more disembarkers than Queen, based purely on observation.

 

[Darren B]

A problem with a Queen alignment is that the Queen portion will only run along certain parts of Queen East and West. A completely separate line might have to be built if one wants to extend Queen further east or west.

Well not really. Queen ends at Ronce. The DRL would go up Ronce to Dundas West. The only issue left out is Queen East in the Beaches. That could be a future extension one day, a possible feeder line even. But 'Queen West' would be completely served with a DRL on Queen.

 

[Darren B]

If the existence of crowded vehicles is the main qualification for a subway line, then pretty much every suburban arterial route (and some non-arterials) qualifies for a subway line...particularly all the ones that are already busier than the Queen streetcar. How frequent are these crowded vehicles and where are the people going?

You're forgetting the frequency of vehicles as well as the capacity of the articulated cars, as well as the round the clock exisiting transit on Queen. We've been through before with the Markham comparision. I though we were going to steer clear from the cheap shot analogies. You're just messing with someone's previous comment to come up with a ridiculous comment all together.

 

[Darren B]

I 'concocted' that data for two years working in the TTC's Service Planning department, from on vehicle riding counts and off vehicle standing counts. They are not feigned in any way.

I'm now a paid consultant.

At all times I have not owned a car and ride the subway, and the TTC, daily.

What the heck is your background to make slanderous claims against the results of sometimes painstaking work?

No offense Karl, I didnt know it was you behind the report.

 

[Darren B]

Looks like Queen is about to take the lead in our poll. Any 2 'others' willing to switch their vote? What will it take for me to convince you of the benefit of a DRL alignment under Queen?

 

[CDL.TO]

CDL.TO, not a good day to be on the 90 near Oakwood with the shooting in the area. I was looking to buy up there in late 2006. But after hearing about the crime, I settled with life in east york / beaches. If I did live up there I'd still be advocating for a Queen allignment.

But you haven't see the new development! Three new buildings on route 90, of about 5, 12, and 22 stories. And that's REAL, TODAY development! Nothing hypothetical or in the future! Stop assuming, I see this every day! You need to come and see it for yourself! Maybe if you lived in the city you would?!? Vaughan Road needs a subway! Any numbers that you may find that suggest that Vaughan Road does not need a subway have obviously been forged by corrupt TTC bureaucrats!!!1!

Okay... I'm done.

The shooting is unfortunate, but Vaughan and Oakwood is pretty sketchy. I'm a good distance from that that, and I don't have any concerns. Just like East York/Beaches, things change quickly. There's the million-dollar homes of Cedarvale north of me and the yuppie households of Humewood to the south, both less than 1km away from Vaughan/Oakwood.

 

[Darren B]

It's worth reinterating that a subway train cannot make tight 90 degree turns like a car or streetcar. Check out this image from Steve Munro's blog of a subway curve radius. Practically takes up the full distance from Dundas to Queen.

That was more so a wide bend because of the allignment under Greenwood. ITs most likely going to be under Pape. If so there is a lot of room to play with the curve in the area behind the LCBO east to the area behind the Home Depot parking lot, behind or under the CPR tracks. Thats just to curve the subway tunnel to Carlaw, where it then will go south to Queen. The tight bend will though be at Carlaw/Queen. I believe the NW corner is an empty field pending some sort of development, possibly townhouses. A tight bend could be built in there if the NW corner remains vacant until then. From there, its simply cut and cover along Queen to Ronce. Ronce/Queen is a very wide intersection. More then enough to accomodate a subway.

So as a further point, if the DRL was built along an exisiting rail corridor, how would the various bridges be widened or rebuilt to accomodate the DRL? Wouldnt this halt frieght and GO trains during construction?

 

[kEiThZ]

Well not really. Queen ends at Ronce. The DRL would go up Ronce to Dundas West. The only issue left out is Queen East in the Beaches. That could be a future extension one day, a possible feeder line even. But 'Queen West' would be completely served with a DRL on Queen.

I dunno how that sharp bend at Queen and Ronce is gonna work out. The further north you take the DRL, the less of the E-W corridor you can serve until you have to start curving north. In this case, its quite likely that ronce might get left out if the TTC does not want any sharp corners on its alignment. Look at some of the options here:

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5113-02.gif

I agree completely about Queen East. That's partly why I prefer a separate solution for Queen. I'd like to see LRT on both Queen and King with tunnels through the financial and entertainment district.

Looks like Queen is about to take the lead in our poll. Any 2 'others' willing to switch their vote? What will it take for me to convince you of the benefit of a DRL alignment under Queen?

If you go by the vote a majority prefer an alignment somewhere between Wellington and Front. Just because Queen tops the vote does not mean that a southern alignment is not preferred....remember stats from second year university?

 

[Darren B]

Keith, Ronce widens up to the equivalent of 5 if not 6 lanes near Queen. The West side is cut back from the normal streetline. Getting off a southbound 504 there become pretty dangerous with the wide lane a rider needs to cross. I also dont think its a 90 turn. It could be 95 or 100.

 

[kEiThZ]

Keith, Ronce widens up to the equivalent of 5 if not 6 lanes near Queen. The West side is cut back from the normal streetline. Getting off a southbound 504 there become pretty dangerous with the wide lane a rider needs to cross. I also dont think its a 90 turn. It could be 95 or 100.

I don't think street width matters though when you are turning on a relative dime. And it still won't be as good as the Weston sub.