"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

[kEiThZ]

I just gave you the path before. South on Pape the under the tracks to Gerrard where it curves in a lightning bolt shape west to Logan where it goes south to Queen. From there it travels west to Ronce, and then north on Ronce to Dundas west station

i'd just prefer a pretty picture...thanks....

There's some folks on here who do some amazing graphics....

 

[PSC]

Steve Munro has the 1968 study linked in this post:

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=1625

 

[Darren B]

Darren. I am not questioning Rail's gender....seeing as I have never met the individual before...I am simply choosing not to assume as he/she has never given a clue to his/her gender.

Well thats what you get when a bunch of pansies hide behind nicknames instead of using their actual first name.

It's fine if you guys live on there. Does that mean that I or anyone else should get less say? How come the rest of you get a say on say the Scarborough RT but those of us from out there don't get a say on the DRL?

I dont live anywhere close to Queen street. But from my travels through downtown, on something other then the Yonge line, I see first hand the current development that exists east and west of the financial core. From simply walking to a theatre on Richmond or from biking through the area, I see the development and the activity and hussle and bussle that goes on there 24/7

As for Railization's points, while I agree that he/she makes a good case for a subway on Queen (and I don't dispute the need for some improvement on Queen), I simply disagree that a Queen line should be shoehorned into a DRL. As Scarberian pointed out earlier, the more north you move the line the less likely people are to use it. What's the point of building a relief line if it provides no relief to Yonge/Bloor?

Most people ride the Yonge line south specifically to get to the area between Queen and King. And more would do so, like me and specifically those who live south of the B&D, if it was not so damn congested. Instead they ride streetcars to get to their final destinations, as for many their destination is west or east of the financial core.

 

[kEiThZ]

As opposed to a situation where the DRL runs between Queen and King that:

1) takes people directly to work on weekdays

Of course, many of us simply disagree that most commuters work between Queen and King...myself and the like minded think there's just as many worker south of King.

2) takes people directly to the clubs, restaurants, and malls on weekends

By that same token what about the Ex, Skydome, CN Tower, ACC, St. Lawrence market, Fort York, Roy Thompson Hall, the Hockey Hall of Fame, Sony Centre, the distillery district and getting people closer to the waterfront would not hurt either.

3) improves the situation for people using King and Queen to get into the core

I concede that this is indeed the biggest flaw of a Wellington/Front alignment...but are we trying to relieve Yonge/Bloor or the King and Queen streetcars?

 

[Darren B]

By that same token what about the Ex, Skydome, CN Tower, St. Lawrence market, Fort York, the distillery district and getting people closer to the waterfront.

You do know that the first itme on that llist is seasonal, the second a sporting event which host 3 major events a week in summer at most which along with the third is already serviced by Union.

The others are a ghost town in between October and March.

 

[kEiThZ]

I dont live anywhere close to Queen street. But from my travels through downtown, on something other then the Yonge line, I see first hand the current development that exists east and west of the financial core. From simply walking to a theatre on Richmond or from biking through the area, I see the development and the activity and hussle and bussle that goes on there 24/7.

I don't dispute that there's development on Queen. And I don't dispute that Queen is a busy area....as one who occassionally hits up a bar or two Queen I don't disagree with those assertions.

The questions becomes again, how do you serve that demand and how do you relieve Queen/King without actually compromising the chief goal of relieving Yonge/Bloor. Using CC's map as an example....Union is 11 stops from Pape on both the YUS and DRL. So all commuters travelling east of Pape to King and points south would use the DRL while all the rest would travel via Yonge/Bloor. Shift the subway north to Queen and folks going to King and Union actually need to get off and change at Queen. They won't. They'll ride to Yonge/Bloor defeating the whole purpose of this multi-billion dollar investment.

For Queen specifically, I'd love to see the street through the entertainment and financial districts become a pedestrian mall with a streetcar ROW, or put the streetcars in a tunnel.... speeding up travel and supporting the street life that's there.

 

[kEiThZ]

You do know that the first itme on that llist is seasonal, the second a sporting event which host 3 major events a week in summer at most which along with the third is already serviced by Union.

The others are a ghost town in between October and March.

One could say the same for patios in this town....

 

[Darren B]

IUsing CC's map as an example....Union is 11 stops from Pape on both the YUS and DRL. So all commuters travelling east of Pape to King and points south would use the DRL while all the rest would travel via Yonge/Bloor.

God almighty....just go on a Yonge subway train tomorrow anywhere between 8:00 and 9:30 and see how the train is almost empty after King. Hardly anyone exits at Union compared to the same number who exist at Queen or even King. I personally dont see the inside of Union unless Im meeting friends coming in on the GO train, or unless Im using the GO myself. And the same goes for almost every TTC rider I know.

 

[Whoaccio]

DRL would have just 1 or 2 stations in the area, and neither would be right at waterfront. The light rail / streetcar line would serve a completely different market.

In your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe the TTC will build two parallel "rapid transit" lines within 300m of each other at the same time?

EDIT: The Queen St. alignment seems to have made a bit of a comeback in the (completely meaningless) poll.

 

[Darren B]

One could say the same for patios in this town....

Well Queen wasnt like that this past Saturday afternoon just up the street from the Scotiabank Theatre. The sidewalks were pretty packed, and this in the middle of a recession. Other then a picture, how can I convince you? You should seriously just grab a 501 or a 504 just twice next week, once during rush hour and once on the weekend. Look at the passengers on the streetcar, and all the cars on the road, and all the pedestrians. Then imagine how busier it would even be if the street was cleared from all those streetcars and there was a subway running underneath.

 

[kEiThZ]

God almighty....just go on a Yonge subway train tomorrow anywhere between 8:00 and 9:30 and see how the train is almost empty after King. Hardly anyone exits at Union compared to the same number who exist at Queen or even King. I personally dont see the inside of Union unless Im meeting friends coming in on the GO train, or unless Im using the GO myself. And the same goes for almost every TTC rider I know.

As someone who's worked and studied in the core for years, I am familiar with how busy those stations are. But don't forget that many of those folks also work north of Queen and south of king. In building the DRL to relieve Y/B you'd have to end up prioritizing one of those sets....either you end up running it along Queen or King or you end up with that hybrid Richmond/Adelaide deal where you only help out half the commuters with their preferred alignment (presuming we are splitting the tracks here).

Anyway, like I said before, King I can probably accept. In terms of relieving Yonge/Bloor, I can see how King would work. But Queen I find harder to accept simply because I think that when you get that far north most folks from the east will simply revert to using Yonge/Bloor anyway.

Well Queen wasnt like that this past Saturday afternoon just up the street from the Scotiabank Theatre. The sidewalks were pretty packed, and this in the middle of a recession. Other then a picture, how can I convince you? You should seriously just grab a 501 or a 504 just twice next week, once during rush hour and once on the weekend. Look at the passengers on the streetcar, and all the cars on the road, and all the pedestrians. Then imagine how busier it would even be if the street was cleared from all those streetcars and there was a subway running underneath.

Queen is not going to get busier just because we build a subway there. Do you really believe that the streetcar is limiting the number of club and bar patrons? As for the commuters on those streetcars....this goes back to my original question....are we building a DRL or a Queen subway? If we are building a line to relieve Yonge/Bloor than it's difficult to make the case for Queen. If our goal is to service Queen than I concede that a subway on there would be fine. But again, what's the goal here.

 

[Darren B]

Do you really believe that the streetcar is limiting the number of club and bar patrons?

If you were truly familiar with Queen, then you would not even have to ask that qeustion. Freeing up Queen street from all those streetcars would do leaps and bounds towards attracting more people to Queen.

 

[Disparishun]

God almighty....just go on a Yonge subway train tomorrow anywhere between 8:00 and 9:30 and see how the train is almost empty after King. Hardly anyone exits at Union compared to the same number who exist at Queen or even King. I personally dont see the inside of Union unless Im meeting friends coming in on the GO train, or unless Im using the GO myself. And the same goes for almost every TTC rider I know.

This may sound crazy, but if you really want to compare ridership at TTC subway ridership at Union and King stations, wouldn't TTC ridership data be a better source than what you believe to be true of those TTC riders with whom you are personally acquainted?

 

[kEiThZ]

If you were truly familiar with Queen, then you would not even have to ask that qeustion. Freeing up Queen street from all those streetcars would do leaps and bounds towards attracting more people to Queen.

Free it up to what end though....just so we can run more cars down the street? I think badly run streetcar service might be the issue on Queen after hours....Anyway, I highly doubt there is any city in the world that builds subway lines to cater to bar and club patrons....because even if there was a subway, after 0130 you are either going to be running buses or streetcars on Queen.

Either way, I am willing to bet money that all those tourist attractions that operate a few times a week and the others I listed earlier generate more subway riders weekly than the bar/club goers....who will probably cab or use the streetcar if they don't live in the core since the subway closes way too early anyway.

 

[Darren B]

This may sound crazy, but if you really want to compare ridership at TTC subway ridership at Union and King stations, wouldn't TTC ridership data be a better source than what you believe to be true of those TTC riders with whom you are personally acquainted?

Do you think the data is wrong?

Did you ever think that some egg head in a TTC office somewhere is concocting that data? It might even be a guy who is a paid consultant and never rides the subway himself