kEiThZ
Superstar
Now, now you can't use ridership numbers to argue your case and then argue against somebody else's.
The TTC ridership numbers are the only objective data that we have to really judge....ridership.
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"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?
- Thread starter Whoaccio
- Start date
Now, now you can't use ridership numbers to argue your case and then argue against somebody else's.
The TTC ridership numbers are the only objective data that we have to really judge....ridership.
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Darren B
Guest
First off, its not just bar patrons who frequent those areas. Theres more then just bars on that strip. Streetcars and their numerous blockages dissuade many people from frequenting our downtown core. It also limits development. Imagine how many more patios etc would open up if there wasnt the constant rumbling of streetcars a few feet away. A packed sidewalk on a Saturday afternoon in Feb is just a sign of the potential of that street.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Looking strictly at the ridership numbers though I would submit that King or further south is the best alignment is probably best:
King + St. Andrew is approximately 112k riders.
Osgoode + Queen is approximately 77k riders.
Union is approximately 81k riders.
So King's probably the best by the numbers.
King + St. Andrew is approximately 112k riders.
Osgoode + Queen is approximately 77k riders.
Union is approximately 81k riders.
So King's probably the best by the numbers.
Disparishun
Active Member
I have to admit -- no, I never did consider that the TTC subway ridership data were made up, and that it is better to trust your gut than to rely on them for planning decisions.
However, I do think that we have to at least assume good faith and basic competency on the part of the TTC. For that reason, if someone wishes to assert that the TTC ridership data is made-up lies, I do think the onus lies on that person to demonstrate that there is some basis for thinking so. Otherwise, it seems most reasonable to me to trust the TTC's numbers as the best available data source -- for instance, a better one than your generalization of your assessment of your acquaintances' subway ridership to the system at large.
(This goes back to the above remark re: subway ridership at Queen, King, and Union -- TTC subway ridership data for 2007-8 show subway ridership at 80,990 for Union; 65,970 for King; and 56,290 for Queen.)
I do think you're right to take both subway stations into account, as long as you're counting. There's also streetcar traffic. However, much of that surely overlaps with the subway traffic. Also, I wasn't able to find more recent streetcar ridership data than 2005-6, and even that is for traffic during the week only.
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Darren B
Guest
We've all seen the fruits of TTC reports and studies; such as the Sheppard STUBway, the highely used Glencarin station, the ever popular Mususem station reno, the extension to an empty field north of York U.
Should I go on? Or can we all agree that sometimes actually seeing is believing?
Should I go on? Or can we all agree that sometimes actually seeing is believing?
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smuncky
Senior Member
i see lots of people get off at college and dundas all the time. i think there should be a subway there. 
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Darren B
Guest
i see lots of people get off at college and dundas all the time. i think there should be a subway there.
There is a subway there. It runs on Yonge. But really lame attempt at being funny. The argument was; are there numerous people heading to Union because they work or visit the areas east and west of Union station.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I doubt that Lakeshore East LRT even has to be "rapid transit". It should be a local line that happens to be on a ROW, but with frequent stops.
But in case they can't justify building both DRL and Lakeshore East LRT, they should just build DRL.
Not that I have a strong preference for the alignment of DRL. I voted for Wellington since that would allow three transfer points to YUS as well as a short walk through PATH to many destinations. However, Front or King or Adelaide or Queen are all reasonable alignments.
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Disparishun
Active Member
Do you mean that the above examples demonstrate that the most realistic assessment of TTC subway ridership statistics is that the TTC has made them up, and we are better off trusting the ridership statistics that we imagine to be true?
If so then, no, you have not made a convincing case. When you tell me that "[h]ardly anyone exits at Union compared to the same number who exist at Queen or even King", and the TTC subway ridership statistics show subway ridership at 80,990 for Union; 65,970 for King; and 56,290 for Queen -- the TTC data are more convincing than the Darren B data.
Were you to find something out about the TTC subway ridership data that would give us a reason to think them made-up, that might be different. But you don't seem to have looking into the methodology behind the TTC subway ridership data at all. In the meantime, it seems fair to take the TTC at face value on this one. It would be a great scandal if they were found to be making up numbers without a sound methodology, and they have every incentive to do the best job they can of it.
Was that really the argument? Or was the argument that there are numerous people heading to Union because that works for them, for whatever reason, including working, living, and visiting the areas east, west, and north of Union station?
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Paleo
Active Member
Dundas + St. Patrick is 78K according to that chart.
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Darren B
Guest
Yeah, say what you like. But we have the system that we currently have because of poor planning and horrible estimates by the TTC. So I'll take any of their report with a grain of salt.
Dan416
Senior Member
maybe we should stop abbreviating DRL. It's called the Downtown Relief Line for a reason. As keithz points out, it's to relieve Bloor-Yonge, NOT to relieve the Queen streetcar, NOT to relieve Union station.
As you may gather from my map, I believe Union should be the hub for the YUS and DRL. Where exactly the DRL goes out from Union, I don't really care too much. It can go along Front, King, Richmond/Adelaide, even Queen. As long as it goes through Union, so that it looks pretty on the map
As you may gather from my map, I believe Union should be the hub for the YUS and DRL. Where exactly the DRL goes out from Union, I don't really care too much. It can go along Front, King, Richmond/Adelaide, even Queen. As long as it goes through Union, so that it looks pretty on the map
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Darren B
Guest
maybe we should stop abbreviating DRL. It's called the Downtown Relief Line for a reason. As keithz points out, it's to relieve Bloor-Yonge, NOT to relieve the Queen streetcar, NOT to relieve Union station.
As you may gather from my map, I believe Union should be the hub for the YUS and DRL. Where exactly the DRL goes out from Union, I don't really care too much. It can go along Front, King, Richmond/Adelaide, even Queen. As long as it goes through Union, so that it looks pretty on the map
Are you serious? Looking pretty on a map? All those different nodes on NYC's subway map sure look pretty too. Its kind of backward to focus more resources on the same existant node.
Dan416
Senior Member
Union is still not the busiest that it could be. So it can handle more traffic.
kEiThZ
Superstar
This all comes down to how its being sold. If the city is going to make subway extensions conditional on Yonge/Bloor relief, they have to then build whatever maximizes that goal, one would think. I don't know if the province would just handover cash to build a queen subway just like that. Lastly, if we ever want federal dollars for this line it's probably going to have to serve 905ers (ie.near or through Union).