Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Question for those that have studied the newly proposed alignment. If they extend it to Sheppard would it likely Markham/Milner, McCowan/Sheppard or Kennedy/Sheppard? Im assuming its still McCowan based on the corridor and the website.

I think the rejected "Big bend" was set up to go to Kennedy but I find it slightly unfortunate that the subway would go to McCowan and not be able to go to Markham/Milner and safe to also assume its unlikely they would even debate to extend it out there.

 

[APTA-2048]

He was my councillor. He's a buffoon. I don't disagree. But he made certain promises and it helped him and the PCs win. You can bet that they will build the SSE if they think there are more votes to be had in it.
Note that I said marginal votes. There are plenty of 905 commuters that come through Scarborough Centre. The place is a GO bus hub after all. There will be at least some who'd like a subway there. And in politics, even a few percentage points is worth some thing if it snatches seats from your opponents.

I know you said marginal, but I still think you are overestimating how useful the Bloor-Danforth extension is for people in Pickering and Markham. Sure a small margin will benefit, but even in a close election I don't think that would be enough to make a difference.

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree and of course. They should build all of it at this point, no reason not to. Since they can't seem to explain what makes LRT better, build the subways both Scarborough and Sheppard East, and the Eglinton East LRT. Just get it all done, and let's move on. It's been 11 years since transit city already.

There isn't enough provincial cash flow to build it all. Toronto is not willing to pitch in, despite being the only city to get all its LRTs fully covered by Queen's Park. And the politicians want the votes that come with transit. Or rather to avoid the penalties that come with disruption. I personally think that the only reason that the subway came back in the end was that the Scarborough MPPs were actually worried about the disruption of the RT closure right before an election.

 

[Momo49]

There isn't enough provincial cash flow to build it all. Toronto is not willing to pitch in, despite being the only city to get all its LRTs fully covered by Queen's Park. And the politicians want the votes that come with transit. Or rather to avoid the penalties that come with disruption. I personally think that the only reason that the subway came back in the end was that the Scarborough MPPs were actually worried about the disruption of the RT closure right before an election.

Your point of Queens park funding all of Torontos LRTs is false. Queens park has barely funded half of transit city. For example, waterfront and jane lrt plans are collecting dust, and don mills morphed into dt relief line which is also unfunded.

 

[OneCity]

Your point of Queens park funding all of Torontos LRTs is false. Queens park has barely funded half of transit city. For example, waterfront and jane lrt plans are collecting dust, and don mills morphed into dt relief line which is also unfunded.

The brunt of the blame for the City's transit neglect should be pointed directly at the Federal Government. They are the biggest winners off the swaths of business income being generated in and around the legacy of previous transit investment. The lack of funds for transit is not and should never have been a City issue to the extent it is and the Province is doing what it can and somewhat overstepping their funding role to play Politics.

A major part of why Toronto is divided right now because of this fight to grab whatever insufficient funds are available because there has never been a realistic plan. Only now are we even starting to see the Feds get mildly serious. But still no long term sustainable plan. We need to be lobbying with one voice from above and not wasting time fighting each other. We are only letting those that can actually fix the City off the hook but not starting to have this meaningful discussion at the forefront

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Question for those that have studied the newly proposed alignment. If they extend it to Sheppard would it likely Markham/Milner, McCowan/Sheppard or Kennedy/Sheppard? Im assuming its still McCowan based on the corridor and the website.

I think the rejected "Big bend" was set up to go to Kennedy but I find it slightly unfortunate that the subway would go to McCowan and not be able to go to Markham/Milner and safe to also assume its unlikely they would even debate to extend it out there.

Markham/Milner. The big bend was rejected because it would have forced sheppard I think. Markham/Milner(Sheppard) allows for the subway to go to Malvern. They could still extend sheppard east, but the big bend would have made it a much easier transition.

There isn't enough provincial cash flow to build it all. Toronto is not willing to pitch in, despite being the only city to get all its LRTs fully covered by Queen's Park. And the politicians want the votes that come with transit. Or rather to avoid the penalties that come with disruption. I personally think that the only reason that the subway came back in the end was that the Scarborough MPPs were actually worried about the disruption of the RT closure right before an election.

Yup. the last sentence is correct. Shame too.

The brunt of the blame for the City's transit neglect should be pointed directly at the Federal Government. They are the biggest winners off the swaths of business income being generated in and around the legacy of previous transit investment. The lack of funds for transit is not and should never have been a City issue to the extent it is and the Province is doing what it can and somewhat overstepping their funding role to play Politics.

A major part of why Toronto is divided right now because of this fight to grab whatever insufficient funds are available because there has never been a realistic plan. Only now are we even starting to see the Feds get mildly serious. But still no long term sustainable plan. We need to be lobbying with one voice from above and not wasting time fighting each other. We are only letting those that can actually fix the City off the hook but not starting to have this meaningful discussion at the forefront

Agreed. Even if the subway is built, what about the Jane LRT? Waterfront? East Bayfront? Milton and Richmond Hill Go lines?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Steve Munro pointed out that almost half of the station usage will be bus to bus transfers. Tory likes to say it's a busy station but it does not translate to high subway ridership. This is just another example of John Tory twisting the facts to fit his narrative.

Did he provide a source for that claim? Where might we find it?

 

[salsa]

Did he provide a source for that claim? Where might we find it?

I presume he got the numbers from the reports. He tweeted:

"High usage of future STC station do not square with projected daily ridership of subway. About half of usage is bus to bus transfers. If STC station will have 70k daily users but subway only 38k, almost half are only using it for bus travel. Not exactly King Stn as claimed."

 

[rbt]

There isn't enough provincial cash flow to build it all.

Yep. Even the "value engineered" GO RER/HSR plans are short-funded by billions and those are promises the province made; Eglinton east is a promise the city made.

 

[BurlOak]

The brunt of the blame for the City's transit neglect should be pointed directly at the Federal Government. They are the biggest winners off the swaths of business income being generated in and around the legacy of previous transit investment. The lack of funds for transit is not and should never have been a City issue to the extent it is and the Province is doing what it can and somewhat overstepping their funding role to play Politics.

A major part of why Toronto is divided right now because of this fight to grab whatever insufficient funds are available because there has never been a realistic plan. Only now are we even starting to see the Feds get mildly serious. But still no long term sustainable plan. We need to be lobbying with one voice from above and not wasting time fighting each other. We are only letting those that can actually fix the City off the hook but not starting to have this meaningful discussion at the forefront

The past 10 years, or specifically from 2006 to 2015, the Federal government funded transit like never before. $300M for SELRT, $700M for Spadina Extension, $700M for SSE, $2.6B for SmartTrack. In 2016, Trudeau gave $800M.
The problem is not federal money, it is that Toronto is planning to do the wrong things.

 

[sixrings]

I don’t even think the planning was the problem. Canceling is the problem especially when we are just about to put shovels in the ground

 

[BurlOak]

Question for those that have studied the newly proposed alignment. If they extend it to Sheppard would it likely Markham/Milner, McCowan/Sheppard or Kennedy/Sheppard? Im assuming its still McCowan based on the corridor and the website.

I think the rejected "Big bend" was set up to go to Kennedy but I find it slightly unfortunate that the subway would go to McCowan and not be able to go to Markham/Milner and safe to also assume its unlikely they would even debate to extend it out there.

Based on the alignment which is in a north-south direction parallel to McCowan, and immediately west of McCowan, there is no other possibility than extending to Sheppard/McCowan.

 

[BurlOak]

Speaking of alignment of the transit line - I have 4 questions.

1. What is the best transit proposal for STC?
2. Based on where we are today, what if the best transit proposal for STC?
3. Based on where we are today, what is the best transit proposal that would get adequate political support?
4. What is going to be built?

For #1, I would say the connected SRT/ECLRT.
#2 likely SmartSpur or a whole new transit line from STC to downtown (via Don Valley).
For #3, SSE with Stations at Lawrence and Sheppard.
#4, 1 stop SSE to STC.

If you answer the same to each of the questions, then you can say that Toronto (City and Provincial) politicians have done a good job and deserve re-election.

 

[OneCity]

The past 10 years, or specifically from 2006 to 2015, the Federal government funded transit like never before. $300M for SELRT, $700M for Spadina Extension, $700M for SSE, $2.6B for SmartTrack. In 2016, Trudeau gave $800M.
The problem is not federal money, it is that Toronto is planning to do the wrong things.

How can you plan properly without long term funding in place. This is the reason our City planning is so Political is because the lack of funds is causing us to:

1.Fight over whos priority is the greater priority.
2.Fight over who gets left out
3.Force transfers where they shouldn't be and push for poor integration


That's the cause and effect of a funding problem that only the Feds can fix.

And more importantly where is the long term plan? They are coming late to the party and what is the plan to fund in the future? No one knows and therefore you cant properly plan as a City. Even the known unfunded lines are not close to being the last lines that need built. The infrastructure need doesn't stop unless growth stops. The Feds are the largest beneficiaries of the economic success of the "Mega City" and they need to ensure it can support the growth. Its helped the Country pull through a recession when business dried up basically everywhere else outside of BC and Ontario. They should know how important Toronto and Vancouver is to Canada, but they are Politicians and without strong pressure or a loud voice they will drag their feet even if its for the greater good.

Their only role here is too fund the infrastructure adequately. Id argue they are still not even close and were just happy to finally see some money. The Province and the City will continue to play Political games because they cant actually build much nor should they be pretending too. But this is what is going on and has led to an unhealthy politics & inadequate building based on the lack of a proper funding model

 

[Anonymous2000]

Speaking of alignment of the transit line - I have 4 questions.

1. What is the best transit proposal for STC?
2. Based on where we are today, what if the best transit proposal for STC?
3. Based on where we are today, what is the best transit proposal that would get adequate political support?
4. What is going to be built?

1. SSE combining the uses of the Gatineau Hydro and Brimley Corridors.
2. SSE along Brimley or Smarttrack Spur that extends up to Malvern
3. Bringing back Lawrence East and Sheppard East Stations as well as bring Sheppard subway extension to STC (I know its astronomical, but can't ignore the political support within Wards 39, 40 and 41)
4. The one stop extension to STC (most likely along the Mc Cowan corridor) even though cost will skyrocket

If you answer the same to each of the questions, then you can say that Toronto (City and Provincial) politicians have done a good job and deserve re-election.

In response, I would say some deserve re-election and some deserve to be voted out in 2018