Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

Keep drinking the kool-aid. The guy who cant compromise and continues to try to dictate what gets built in another area against decades of debate and preference all based on one sided "facts".

"One sided facts" - in that they overwhelmingly don't support a certain side of this debate which you happen to be a part of.

And these people are so use to controlling the narrative they don't realize they are just making matter worse but not compromising.

I thought the one stop subway + LRT was that compromise you wanted. Even many on the left (after much consternation) eventually got around to accepting it. So if you want to talk about compromise, why don't you tell that to your subway or nothing Liberals & councillors who will never be satisfied until they get the Sheppard subway as well. What about Brad Duguid who refuses to fund the Eglinton LRT and keep his side of the bargain. How is one supposed to compromise with these people when they stubbornly championed a subway plan that is rapidly deteriorated far beyond what any reasonable person would support?

Matlow and his ilk come off knowledgeable to their faithful. But he doesn't represent Scarborough nor does he care to listen or compromise with the intelligent people from Scarborough. Their was an intelligent other side of this debate that had been ignored. So...

What "intelligent other side"? No seriously, would you mind pointing them out? Because if there ever was one, it's been completely drowned out by all the loud buffoons like GDB, Brad Duguid, by Ford / Mammoliti "SUBWAYS" (x 3) noises, and by John Tory's spin and alternative facts. You can disagree with the left, but their position is supported entirely by facts while this crop of duds only know how to tell lies and rely entirely on emotional appeals about how only a subway = respect for Scarborough. They don't care what cost, shape or form it comes in as long as Scarborough gets a subway and that's all that matters.

Your vision of a transit network that you've been passionately advocating for is rapidly falling apart as we speak. Your political reps are the ones who held the balance of power these last few years, they fumbled this up all on their own and in the process thoroughly destroyed any semblance of responsible transit planning in this city. But you have nothing to say about any of that other than to keep yelling about the downtown media.

 

[nfitz]

Your vision of a transit network which you've been passionately advocating for is rapidly falling apart as we speak. Your political reps who've held the balance of power these last few years have fumbled this up all on their own, but you have nothing to say about any of that other than to keep yelling about the downtown media.

It's true. If the Scarborough councillors had played their cards right, they'd be having rapid transit all over the district, with the Sheppard East LRT probably already under construction - the yard was already being tendered back in 2012, and was supposed to start construction in 2013 and be finished in 2016. The SRT would likely have been part of the Crosstown package - heck it WAS, they had to pull it out in a revision. And now they are talking about Eglinton East as well - which would be easy to fund, given the other two lines were already fully funded! (not to mention the Eglinton line). All finished by 2021 or so. (well, not Eglinton East ...)

And now what do you have? Squat. Promises which might not even survive a PC government - if they have sense of fiscal responsibility at all. At best - 1 station. That's less rapid transit than Scarborough has now, given that you are losing 4 SRT stations!

You could have had 31 new stops, and you are getting 1 (maybe). And that allowed for both lines to be extended further. Can you imagine how many decades before extending the subway past Scarborough Centre goes back on the table?

This isn't progress. But perhaps it's what Scarborough deserves for voting in such inept bumbling fools.

 

[sixrings]

I actually think the liberal politicians in scarborough are secretly lrt supporters but have decided to back the subway for fear of losing their jobs from voters. I wonder though if they are listening to a very vocal minority

 

[OneCity]

"One sided facts" - in that they overwhelmingly don't support a certain side of this debate which you happen to be a part of.




I thought the one stop subway + LRT was that compromise you wanted. Even many on the left (after much consternation) eventually got around to accepting it. So if you want to talk about compromise, why don't you tell that to your subway or nothing Liberals & councillors who will never be satisfied until they get the Sheppard subway as well. What about Brad Duguid who refuses to fund the Eglinton LRT and keep his side of the bargain. How is one supposed to compromise with these people when they stubbornly championed a subway plan that is rapidly deteriorated far beyond what any reasonable person would support?

The Politicians & media im taking aim at have not compromised on anything? But they sure have quite a loud message as outsider Minorities. My idea of a network is integrated based on what exists in comparable location of the City and now outside. I want to see transfers in well planned locations. A transfer before SCC is just dumb, absurd and taking the easy way out again by outside Politicians.

I don't like the one stop, nor the costs of how they plan to build it. I support getting rid of SmarTrack and adding stops back in and I don't support the transfer LRT. That's where the biggest waste of time and money is. Ford gave an option yet we are wasting time with old plans that are not wanted and new ones wasting Billions that is affecting the SSE.

Im all for better ideas and cheaper alternatives but touting the old transfer LRT after all this time is shameful. That group hasnt budged yet are so full of "facts" to support. Tory's idiotic plan and fumble has given the some fuel to run with. But that doesn't make the transfer LRT OK. Sorry these people are damaging to the City as a whole as they take the extreme selfish voice against Scarborough wishes on Scarborough issues and get to broadcast it.

There are cheaper ways to build the subway, there are billions in saving if we get rid of Smarttrack and there are other ways to remove the transfer intelligently. That's what the debate should be and should have been. But its not. Its transfer LRT vs. a One stop subway I don't support either but I when I have to choose, I fear further delay and I see a better future for SCC. So that's the only reason I would vote for the current nonsense over the previous nonsense

 

[BurlOak]

The PC's can point at the exuberant cost of the Scarborough subway the provincial Liberals have given us, campaign on upgrading the SRT for $430 million ($360m in 2006 adjusted for inflation), and sell it to the rest of the province as massive cost-savings from a fiscally conservative party.

And the PC's would be absolutely correct.

They don't need Scarborough or Toronto votes for that matter. They can campaign on not spending billions of dollars in Toronto (for the rest of the province, Scarborough may as well be downtown Toronto) and sell themselves as the fiscally responsible party.

And the PC's wouldn't be wrong.

The problem I see is that Etobicoke, North York both have a kinship with Scarborough, also, many of the people in the belt around Toronto also feel like similar suburbs and they also feel for Scarborough (Many living here likely grew up in those outer Boroughs). Thus, the risk is if you loose Scarborough, you could hurting your chances in big parts of the 905 as well.

Nobody will campaign on a transit plan that re-introduces the transfer at Kennedy. It may still happen, but nobody will tell you about it during the campaign.

Any campaign to cancel the SSE would have to begin with embarrassing Toronto by pointing out how Vancouver - a city half the size of Toronto - has the largest rapid Transit system in Canada. Next would have to be a network of elevated transit line to restore Toronto as the national leader. Promise to fund an elevated ECLRT to Pearson. Promise to fund an at-grade B-D extension to 427 (Honeydale). Maybe even try to elevate Finch West and Eglinton (Leslie to Kennedy). Then somehow you can switch SSE to some type of elevated line** - and Scarborough would be getting the same treatment as other areas.

** - this elevated line would have to eliminate the transfer. Either interline with the elevated Eglinton, or elevate to Don Valley and interline with the DRL, or elevate to Don Valley and make it to downtown.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The problem I see is that Etobicoke, North York both have a kinship with Scarborough, also, many of the people in the belt around Toronto also feel like similar suburbs and they also feel for Scarborough (Many living here likely grew up in those outer Boroughs). Thus, the risk is if you loose Scarborough, you could hurting your chances in big parts of the 905 as well.

Nobody will campaign on a transit plan that re-introduces the transfer at Kennedy. It may still happen, but nobody will tell you about it during the campaign.

Any campaign to cancel the SSE would have to begin with embarrassing Toronto by pointing out how Vancouver - a city half the size of Toronto - has the largest rapid Transit system in Canada. Next would have to be a network of elevated transit line to restore Toronto as the national leader. Promise to fund an elevated ECLRT to Pearson. Promise to fund an at-grade B-D extension to 427 (Honeydale). Maybe even try to elevate Finch West and Eglinton (Leslie to Kennedy). Then somehow you can switch SSE to some type of elevated line** - and Scarborough would be getting the same treatment as other areas.

** - this elevated line would have to eliminate the transfer. Either interline with the elevated Eglinton, or elevate to Don Valley and interline with the DRL, or elevate to Don Valley and make it to downtown.

I don't think etobicoke and north york care imo. Especially north york, given that they have the nicest city centre of the three. And you are 100 percent right about Vancouver. It's ridiculous what they have done.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't think etobicoke and north york care imo. Especially north york, given that they have the nicest city centre of the three. And you are 100 percent right about Vancouver. It's ridiculous what they have done.

I forgot to add Montreal. Their REM is adding 60km for $6B. Toronto will fall even farther behind. At some point Toronto is bound to notice how far behind they have fallen.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I forgot to add Montreal. Their REM is adding 60km for $6B. Toronto will fall even farther behind. At some point Toronto is bound to notice how far behind they have fallen.

And the anjou extension will be in revenue service by the time this debate is done. This is hurting the city.

 

[11th]

I forgot to add Montreal. Their REM is adding 60km for $6B. Toronto will fall even farther behind. At some point Toronto is bound to notice how far behind they have fallen.

The common denominators of Montreal and Vancouver: both hosted an expo and the Olympic games. Those contributed to the start up and expansion of their rapid transit network.

 

[BurlOak]

The common denominators of Montreal and Vancouver: both hosted an expo and the Olympic games. Those contributed to the start up and expansion of their rapid transit network.

To some degree - although this new innitiative from Montreal is being done without those.

And Toronto did the PanAm games, which resulted in absolutely nothing. I am convinced that if Toronto would get the Olympics, they would still hold out for 1 Cadillac subway line, instead of broad improvements to many venues - unless the decisions were taken away from them.

 

[nfitz]

And the anjou extension will be in revenue service by the time this debate is done. This is hurting the city.

The Anjou extension was put on the Metro maps in the subway cars 30 years ago, because construction was so imminent they didn't want to have to replace the maps in the trains again (they used to use add white stickers on the maps when new stations opened). Montreal is even worse at Toronto at debate, and perennially announcing projects that don't get built.

I forgot to add Montreal. Their REM is adding 60km for $6B. Toronto will fall even farther behind.

Might add. Don't forget a good chunk of that line is the existing Deux-Montagnes commuter line - this is the same line that was supposed to get upgraded to a metro-like service in the early 1960s - aka Line 3. Which is why when Line 4 opened in 1967 it was Line 4 not Line 3.

Both these projects have been on the books for 50 years, in one form or another. I'll believe it when I see it!

 

[kEiThZ]

The PCs just won a by election in Scarborough promising to build a subway extension.

I would bet money that the SSE will happen before anything else with the PCs.

North York and Etobicoke may not care. But the SSE might just move marginal votes in Durham and Markham.

You can bet they've done surveys too to determine what is most politically advantageous. I'll bet money they don't give a fig about the LRT crowd because most of that set won't ever vote PC.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The PCs just won a by election in Scarborough promising to build a subway extension.

I would bet money that the SSE will happen before anything else with the PCs.

North York and Etobicoke may not care. But the SSE might just move marginal votes in Durham and Markham.

You can bet they've done surveys too to determine what is most politically advantageous. I'll bet money they don't give a fig about the LRT crowd because most of that set won't ever vote PC.

Ray Cho also promised the sheppard subway, that might not get built. Its not about the LRT crowd (poor salesmen, the lot of them), its about the fiscal situation, its not looking good.

 

[APTA-2048]

North York and Etobicoke may not care. But the SSE might just move marginal votes in Durham and Markham.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but people in Pickering and Markham could care less for an increasingly expensive 1-stop subway that is nowhere near their city.

 

[Rainforest]

It's true. If the Scarborough councillors had played their cards right, they'd be having rapid transit all over the district, with the Sheppard East LRT probably already under construction - the yard was already being tendered back in 2012, and was supposed to start construction in 2013 and be finished in 2016. The SRT would likely have been part of the Crosstown package - heck it WAS, they had to pull it out in a revision. And now they are talking about Eglinton East as well - which would be easy to fund, given the other two lines were already fully funded! (not to mention the Eglinton line). All finished by 2021 or so. (well, not Eglinton East ...)

The locals probably feel that (a) Sheppard East and Eglinton East LRT lines are not very "rapid", therefore they are nice to have but not worth fighting hard for, and (b) they will get some combination of light rail and BRT out of the subsequent rounds of transit expansion, while the subway (SSE) is a once-in-the-lifetime opportunity and has to be protected at all cost.

And, they might be right. We will see.