Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

City Staff mentioned that it was feasible tonight. Metrolinx has concluded the same in their own report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

Feasible at what cost, and involving closing Kennedy for how many years?

No, the subway in the SRT corridor would go to Sheppard, with stops at Lawrence, Scarborough Centre, Centennial and Sheppard. There'd be enormous improvements to travel time without the Kennedy transfer.

That proposal isn't on the table.

1. Scarborough was promised a subway. This is the cheapest way to deliver the subway. Not delivering a subway to Scarborough isn't a realistic option.

It's a perfectly reasonable option. Scarborough was also promised an LRT. Scarborough was promised an RT upgrade. Scarborough was promised the ALRT. Scarborough was promised an expressway down Kingston Road to the Gardiner.

2. What option is "paying out more, to give us a lot less"? Yes, the subway in SRT corrior would cost $600 Million more than the LRT, but it would also be moving 14,000 people per hour (assuming it has similar ridership as Scarborough Subway terminating at Sheppard), vs. 8,000 people per hour for the LRT proposal. We're paying $600 Million more (than the LRT), to eliminate a transfer and moving 6,000 more people. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Your solution is to throw even MORE money at this boondoggle? When most people in Scarborough are not travelling to where the Subway is going?

A 6-km non-stop express subway? If you did the same thing from Kipling the next stop could be at Pearson (though only on the south side of the runway ) Or heck, go 9 km and get to Square One.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Feasible at what cost, and involving closing Kennedy for how many years?

At a cost of $2.38 Billon for an alignment between Kennedy and Sheppard. Kennedy would be closed for an insignificant amount of time (that's what the report says). This is because the location of the new Kennedy Station box wouldn't be in a location that physically conflicts with the original Kennedy Station. They need to build the new station box, and connect it up (requiring closure for a few weeks it seems). This doesn't appear to be any more painful than the Yonge Line closures to accommodate Eglinton Line.

That proposal isn't on the table.

I know that 4-stop subway in the SRT corridor isn't on the table. My point is that the planners said it would be feasible, and that the TTC will be reporting back on a similar option next month.

It's a perfectly reasonable option. Scarborough was also promised an LRT. Scarborough was promised an RT upgrade. Scarborough was promised the ALRT. Scarborough was promised an expressway down Kingston Road to the Gardiner.

Okay, good luck cancelling the subway.

Your solution is to throw even MORE money at this boondoggle?

More money? Running it in the SRT corridor between Kennedy and Sheppard with 4 stops would be cheaper than the 1-stop subway that's been endorsed by Council. It's less money. If Council, for whatever reason, still wants a 1-stop "express subway" along the SRT corridor, they can still do that and save perhaps another $500 Million, which could bring the costs down to approximately the same price as the original Transit City proposal.

A 6-km non-stop express subway? If you did the same thing from Kipling the next stop could be at Pearson (though only on the south side of the runway ) Or heck, go 9 km and get to Square One.

I'm advocating for the 4-stop surface subway in SRT corridor. If Council wants to still build a 1-stop surface subway in the SRT corridor, that's on them. Both can be built for significantly less than the Council endorsed 1-stop subway.

 

[ssiguy2]

This SRT route makes the most financial and logistical sense and will probably get very little civic opposition as it's simply using an existing corridor. This, unlike the stupid one-stop idea also serves Centennial and Sheppard.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This SRT route makes the most financial and logistical sense and will probably get very little civic opposition as it's simply using an existing corridor. This, unlike the stupid one-stop idea also serves Centennial and Sheppard.

It's also the only option that Scarborough Subway opponents on Council are pushing. Nobody is trying to go back the the LRT plan anymore. It's dead.

Building the subway extension on the surface in the SRT corridor is an option that will be endorsed by the anti-subway and pro-subway factions of Council alike. And the money saved (compared to the 1-stop extension) will be more than enough to extend the Malvern LRT to Sheppard, rather than terminating at University of Toronto Scarborough. This is genuinely the best option from a network building and political point-of-view.

 

[Anonymous2000]

I was thinking. I know this goes against what everyone says about the final terminus in the long-term being at Mc Cowan and Sheppard, but I really think this is worth looking at. Why not have the subway terminate at Brimley/Sheppard? Assuming that Scarborough Centre Station will be at Mc Cowan/Ellesmere intersection, why not take it towards Brimley by giving Scarborough Centre at second station near Progress. From looking at Google Maps and Bing Maps, this idea has advantages. The Intersection at Brimley/Sheppard is much closer to the CP Midtown Rail Corridor then Mc Cowan/Sheppard. Should GO Transit decided to run trains along that corridor, this could provide a good connection. Also from reading the report about extending GO rail service to Peterborough, one of the proposed stations was at the intersection at Brimley/Sheppard.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/studies/Peterborough_Rail_Study.pdf

Also, there is some sizable density at Brimley/Sheppard intersection such as the Oriental Centre Mall, as well as plazas that can easily be redeveloped, especially west of Brimley. This can help develope Agincourt to be a very important node. At Mc Cowan/Sheppard intersection, it mostly consist of warehouses. Also you have to deal with a branch of Highland Creek. The only sizable density near the Mc Cowan/Sheppard intersection are a couple of apartment buildings further east along Sheppard and further south on Mc Cowan at Town Centre Plaza near Milner.

I understand and well aware that this idea will most certainly not come to reality, but I want to hear what everyone's thoughts and opinions are regarding this idea.

 

[coffey1]

No, the subway in the SRT corridor would go to Sheppard, with stops at Lawrence, Scarborough Centre, Centennial and Sheppard. There'd be enormous improvements to travel time without the Kennedy transfer.


1. Scarborough was promised a subway. This is the cheapest way to deliver the subway. Not delivering a subway to Scarborough isn't a realistic option.

2. What option is "paying out more, to give us a lot less"? Yes, the subway in SRT corrior would cost $600 Million more than the LRT, but it would also be moving 14,000 people per hour (assuming it has similar ridership as Scarborough Subway terminating at Sheppard), vs. 8,000 people per hour for the LRT proposal. We're paying $600 Million more (than the LRT), to eliminate a transfer and moving 6,000 more people. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

It's truly unfortunate. If the route you show is feasible with a minor cost increase in the grand scheme then we have really done a disservice to the planning, integration & future of Scarborough. That subway to Malvern would have eliminated the useless RT transfer & connected Scarborough Center the City's transit backbone, all while providing multiple stops to key areas in Scarborough transit desert. It took the best out of 2 Politically polarized plans

I guess that's too intelligent for our Politicians to be able to run with. At this point Scarborough is better off just pushing for the McCowan alignment and fighting for a stop at Lawrence during design when the Scarborough subway stone wallers have quieted down.

Tory is certainly losing his grip with this 1 stop debacle.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Just...lol.

I have no other words.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Lawrence East and Ellesmere would be served by SmartTrack. Adding stations on the Line 2 extension would get very little usage out of them. Unless they ignore the NIMBYs and build high density (like downtown) between the stations.

 

[robmausser]

City Staff mentioned that it was feasible tonight. Metrolinx has concluded the same in their own report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

We'll be getting additional feasibility details in June's TTC report.



No, the subway in the SRT corridor would go to Sheppard, with stops at Lawrence, Scarborough Centre, Centennial and Sheppard. There'd be enormous improvements to travel time without the Kennedy transfer.

1. Scarborough was promised a subway. This is the cheapest way to deliver the subway. Not delivering a subway to Scarborough isn't a realistic option.

2. What option is "paying out more, to give us a lot less"? Yes, the subway in SRT corrior would cost $600 Million more than the LRT, but it would also be moving 14,000 people per hour (assuming it has similar ridership as Scarborough Subway terminating at Sheppard), vs. 8,000 people per hour for the LRT proposal. We're paying $600 Million more (than the LRT), to eliminate a transfer and moving 6,000 more people. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I really hope we go with the subway option in the SRT corridor. It just makes so much more sense than a long tunnel to one stop.

I am sure that eliminating a Smarttrack station at Lawrence could save some money. Maybe not $600 million but still a significant amount put towards this plan. Shift the funds from that to this.

Then Ellesmere could still be served by Smarttrack.

Another thing to note is that the main concern is the turning radius is too tight for the current subway trains.

I believe that this whole project isn't planned to be done until the next 10 years (2025).

By that time, I assume the T1 trains on Line 2 will need to be replaced.

Why don't we put into the order of new vehicles a requirement for a tighter turning radius?

That way by the time this extension is built, we have newer trains on Line 2 that can navigate the tighter turning radii?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Lawrence East and Ellesmere would be served by SmartTrack. Adding stations on the Line 2 extension would get very little usage out of them. Unless they ignore the NIMBYs and build high density (like downtown) between the stations.

That's only if "Option C" is pursued. If we go with Option D, additional RER stations for Scarborough are not happening.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-90856.pdf

Options A and B were rejected by city council.

May I also remind everyone that SmartTrack is not a real thing? The frequencies along the Stouffville corridor are those already committed to by the province for RER.

 

[ShonTron]

Lawrence East and Ellesmere would be served by SmartTrack. Adding stations on the Line 2 extension would get very little usage out of them. Unless they ignore the NIMBYs and build high density (like downtown) between the stations.

You got that map from somewhere. And someone created it. Where's the source and link?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Another thing to note is that the main concern is the turning radius is too tight for the current subway trains.

Why don't we put into the order of new vehicles a requirement for a tighter turning radius?

That way by the time this extension is built, we have newer trains on Line 2 that can navigate the tighter turning radii?

The radius is tight, but not too tight for the subway trains. All the curves that the SRT/subway alignment would have are complaint with the TTC design manual. It certainly can be built.

 

[44 North]

I'm a bit confused here. Is McCowan the preferred alignment, or the SRT corridor? And if the latter, do we have semi-detailed conceptual designs of how the route will get from the current Kennedy to align along the SRT/Stouffville corridor?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I'm a bit confused here. Is McCowan the preferred alignment, or the SRT corridor? And if the latter, do we have semi-detailed conceptual designs of how the route will get from the current Kennedy to align along the SRT/Stouffville corridor?

McCowan is the preferred subway corridor. The following is from the SSE website:

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm a bit confused here. Is McCowan the preferred alignment, or the SRT corridor?

The McCowan alignment is the preferred alignment for the council-approved underground subway. The SRT alignment is an option the TTC will report back on in June.

And if the latter, do we have semi-detailed conceptual designs of how the route will get from the current Kennedy to align along the SRT/Stouffville corridor?

Detailed designs for the surface-subway running in the SRT were completed by Metrolinx back in, I believe, 2014. This includes track diagrams, construction staging, costs estimates, all that good stuff. Recall that this option was killed when Councillor Stintz through a tantrum, claiming that Scarborough deserved an underground subway. The option is now being evaluated again by the TTC, by the request of Council.

The report concluded that building the surface-subway between Kennedy and Sheppard would be feasible, even if the GO lines are double tracked. It would take three years to build, cost $2.23 Billion and necessitate some minor disruptions to Kennedy Station to facilitate construction of a new Line 2 station at Kennedy.

Here is the link to the Metrolinx report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf