Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

So apparently a large part of this Scarborough town hall crowd now believes this subway doesn't have enough ridership to be justified. A huge change from the angry "Scarborough deserves subways" town halls of 2014.

Is there a report on this out yet, and ditto for the DRL info we're now seeing? I'm guessing this 7,300 peak number is a result of removing the Lawrence station (really stupid move), no Sheppard connection, and unreliable SmartTrack/RER data (e.g flat TTC fare, high frequency, free beer, pixie dust, etc).
Perhaps it's an attempt to kill this project. Either way 7,300 doesn't sound right at all.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

City Staff say it's possible (but difficult) to built subway extension in SRT corrior.

Recall that this option was projected by Metrolinx to cost $2.3 Billion, running between Kennedy and Sheppard. This is approximately the same price as the 1-stop underground subway to Scarb Centre. Clearly the superior option, in my opinion.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Is there a report on this out yet, and ditto for the DRL info we're now seeing? I'm guessing this 7,300 peak number is a result of removing the Lawrence station (really stupid move), no Sheppard connection, and unreliable SmartTrack/RER data (e.g flat TTC fare, high frequency, free beer, pixie dust, etc).
Perhaps it's an attempt to kill this project. Either way 7,300 doesn't sound right at all.

Nobody is happy with this plan. I can't imagine this 1-stop being built. TTC will be presenting Council with an option to build this in the SRT corridor. I expect that to be selected.

 

[salsa]

I could support the Scarborough Subway at 14,000 pphpd. I can't support this at 7,300 pphpd, unless it's built on the surface.

You may not support it, but somebody else already does.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The drop was to be expected with the removal of the Lawrence station and the Sheppard station, though I didn't expect it to be this much.

Remember however that 7,300 PPHD is a significant amount considering 100% of that is coming from a single station. The PPHD at Kipling and Downsview is likely far lower. Vaughan Centre will probably be around 1,000 PPHD, if not less, considering that the entire spadina extension is supposed to only hit 7,500 PPHD.

 

[Hopkins123]

Saw Global News interviewing an effected property owner this evening. He says the only way he moves is if the City gives him $1.5 million for his land. This should get interesting.

As an aside, the alignment shown in the news story hints at keeping Scarborough Centre Stn in the same location as existing as the alignment veers northwest off McCowan just south of Ellesmere, so good that everything doesn't have to be rebuilt from scratch.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The drop was to be expected with the removal of the Lawrence station and the Sheppard station, though I didn't expect it to be this much.

Remember however that 7,300 PPHD is a significant amount considering 100% of that is coming from a single station. The PPHD at Kipling and Downsview is likely far lower. Vaughan Centre will probably be around 1,000 PPHD, if not less, considering that the entire spadina extension is supposed to only hit 7,500 PPHD.

Some context here...

The subways extension to Kipling was built on the surface and cost $230 Million. It moves about 6,500 pphpd.

The subway extension to Downsview was built on the surface, with some cut/cover, and it cost $275 Million.

Yes, those values are inflation adjusted.

Kipling and Downsview are not good analogies for this 1-stop, $2.5 Billion extension.

The only reasonably good comparison is TYSSE, which has higher ridership but is still of very questionable merit. I certainly would not have built TYSSE as currently designed.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Those were also obviously much shorter extensions than this one, and built a long time ago. Also, Spadina will probably be more than 7,500 as that projection was done before it went into Vaughan. The extra 2 stations will increase that number.

The point wasn't so much as to directly compare, but to state that end of line ridership will always leave something to be desired. The Yonge extension will have 14,000 PPHD just north of Finch, but sure as heck won't have it at Highway 7. Does that mean the line doesn't make sense? not so much. Its OK to have ridership below 10,000 at end of line, provided that the individual stations remain busy. You actually wouldn't want 50% capacity at the first stop, as that means you are probably going to have big capacity issues down the line, like we see on the Yonge line.

The reality is that Scarborough Town Centre is a massive ridership driver, and will be a very busy subway station if looked in isolation. You just have to question if its worth the cost to service it with a subway considered its isolated location. This project is one I really feel there is no right answer to.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If tonight's town hall was any indication, Tory will have hell to pay come election time, if there isn't a better solution.

 

[BurlOak]

If 7300 at STC is such a low number, let's assume each of the 15 stations east of Yonge have the same number. That gives a total of 110,000 ppdph. With some signaling upgrades, and maybe the addition of a 7th half size car, I I TTC could easily achieve twice this amount and make 7300 look miniscule.

 

[nfitz]

Nobody is happy with this plan. I can't imagine this 1-stop being built. TTC will be presenting Council with an option to build this in the SRT corridor. I expect that to be selected.

SRT corridor is technically infeasible.

More importantly, recall where this started. The base case is the currently approved LRT from Kennedy to Markham/Sheppard. In July 2013 council switched to subway because it looked like it had higher ridership, but was fairly equal in other aspect.

Now look at that again:



So now we have less riders, less residents & employees, no improved travel time to Sheppard (remember, it doesn't even get to Sheppard), and only 1 station compared to 7. But the LRT cost only $1.8 billion - and is fully funded by the province. It doesn't cost the city a cent.

The city paying out hundreds of millions extra for a subway equivalent to LRT is one thing. But paying out a lot more, to give us a lot less?

 

[coffey1]

Ahh here we go. The subway is the correct infrastructure but put a freaken stop at Lawrence. 1 stop just to appease the "transit haves" on council & their partners the Toronto Star. Cmon Tory.

LRT's can be built to feed into the network. Its a shame we are so far behind but it doesn't mean we cut corners. Its time to pay up for a fair system in Toronto. Get Malvern an LRT build the full Scarborough Xtown to the UTSC, Fund the DRL and quit playing divisive games.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

SRT corridor is technically infeasible

City Staff mentioned that it was feasible tonight. Metrolinx has concluded the same in their own report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

We'll be getting additional feasibility details in June's TTC report.

So now we have less riders, less residents & employees, no improved travel time to Sheppard (remember, it doesn't even get to Sheppard), and only 1 station compared to 7.

No, the subway in the SRT corridor would go to Sheppard, with stops at Lawrence, Scarborough Centre, Centennial and Sheppard. There'd be enormous improvements to travel time without the Kennedy transfer.

The city paying out hundreds of millions extra for a subway equivalent to LRT is one thing. But paying out a lot more, to give us a lot less?

1. Scarborough was promised a subway. This is the cheapest way to deliver the subway. Not delivering a subway to Scarborough isn't a realistic option.

2. What option is "paying out more, to give us a lot less"? Yes, the subway in SRT corrior would cost $600 Million more than the LRT, but it would also be moving 14,000 people per hour (assuming it has similar ridership as Scarborough Subway terminating at Sheppard), vs. 8,000 people per hour for the LRT proposal. We're paying $600 Million more (than the LRT), to eliminate a transfer and moving 6,000 more people. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

 

[rbt]

Remember however that 7,300 PPHD is a significant amount considering 100% of that is coming from a single station.

If they were walk-ins that would be massive. I'm much much less impressed when we spend millions every year to bus them to that single station.

We could just as easily bus them to Kennedy or to Finch or Milliken or any other nearby location. What actually makes STC a good place to terminate a very high capacity mode of transit versus any of the numerous other ways of spending that money to improve transit in Scarborough?

 

[Anonymous2000]

Because it's being considered. Surely best to let those that would be impacted now, while the process is still underway.

If not, you get the "why didn't you tell me earlier" complaint.

Damned if you do ... damned if you don't.

I'm confused. First the presentation slides indicate Mc Cowan as a preferred alignment. Then from reading your post, you indicate that it is being considered.
When will the final route be determined.