Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[DonValleyRainbow]

Something else worthy of highlighting here.

The latest plans are still under the assumption of building with TBMs. But the following amendment on the transit item at City Council was motioned by Josh Matlow and adopted by council:

4 - Motion to Amend Item moved by Councillor Josh Matlow (Carried)

That:

1. City Council amend Executive Committee Recommendation 3d by adding the words "that includes an update, in consultation with Metrolinx, of Item CC39.5 Scarborough Rapid Transit Options: Reporting on Council Terms and Conditions presented to the October 8, 9, 10 and 11, 2013 meeting of City Council, to determine whether all or portions of the Scarborough Subway Extension could be built at-grade along with the" after the word "alignment", and deleting the words "and" and "for the Scarborough Subway Extension" the so that it now reads as follows:

d. report to the June 28, 2016 Executive Committee on Part c above, along with a recommended preferred corridor and alignment that includes an update, in consultation with Metrolinx, of Item CC39.5 Scarborough Rapid Transit Options: Reporting on Council Terms and Conditions presented to the October 8, 9, 10 and 11, 2013 meeting of City Council, to determine whether all or portions of the Scarborough Subway Extension could be built at-grade along with the number and location of stations.​

We still have not seen the results of that. This could have major ramifications, and I can see a couple scenarios playing out when this goes back to council.

 

[44 North]

Detailed designs for the surface-subway running in the SRT were completed by Metrolinx back in, I believe, 2014. This includes track diagrams, construction staging, costs estimates, all that good stuff. Recall that this option was killed when Councillor Stintz through a tantrum, claiming that Scarborough deserved an underground subway. The option is now being evaluated again by the TTC, by the request of Council.

The report concluded that building the surface-subway between Kennedy and Sheppard would be feasible, even if the GO lines are double tracked. It would take three years to build, cost $2.23 Billion and necessitate some minor disruptions to Kennedy Station to facilitate construction of a new Line 2 station at Kennedy.

Here is the link to the Metrolinx report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

Cool, thx. So many transit proposals, can't even recall if I've seen this before. I don't really care much for Metrolinx docs, but I have a few qualms with the TTC studying it further. There was a point in time where the TTC used to go out of their way to look for cost-savings, butting heads with council and the planning dept in the process. Now it seems they have to sit back and do what they're told. If they do in fact find a way to make an optimized and affordable SSE using existing ROWs I think it should be considered. Obviously the SRT route has been less than optimal being located where it is, but what's also not optimal is a no-stop subway on McCowan that skips important EW corridors.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The McCowan alignment is the preferred alignment for the council-approved underground subway. The SRT alignment is an option the TTC will report back on in June.



Detailed designs for the surface-subway running in the SRT were completed by Metrolinx back in, I believe, 2014. This includes track diagrams, construction staging, costs estimates, all that good stuff. Recall that this option was killed when Councillor Stintz through a tantrum, claiming that Scarborough deserved an underground subway. The option is now being evaluated again by the TTC, by the request of Council.

The report concluded that building the surface-subway between Kennedy and Sheppard would be feasible, even if the GO lines are double tracked. It would take three years to build, cost $2.23 Billion and necessitate some minor disruptions to Kennedy Station to facilitate construction of a new Line 2 station at Kennedy.

Here is the link to the Metrolinx report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

By the way, just in case anyone was curious, the price of building the subway extension between Kennedy and Scarborough Centre as a surface-subway using the SRT corridor will cost $1.3 Billion. Thats's savings of about $1.2 Billion (vs current underground option). This is based on the Order-of-magnitude Cost Estimate contained in that report.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Something else worthy of highlighting here.

The latest plans are still under the assumption of building with TBMs. But the following amendment on the transit item at City Council was motioned by Josh Matlow and adopted by council:



We still have not seen the results of that. This could have major ramifications, and I can see a couple scenarios playing out when this goes back to council.

Considering that the report is in collaboration with Metrolinx, I expect the results will be very similar to the report Metrolinx report we've been discussing (unless there's some serious political meddling going on). Metrolinx has already done the heavy lifting with the report, and TTC will have no reason to duplicate it.

I'm anticipating that Council will endorse the SRT surface-subway alignment at a cost of $1.3 Billion to $2.4 Billion (depending on whether it terminates at Sheppard or Scarborough Centre), as that alignment is a win for all factions of the Scarborough Subway debate and the mayor. Not taking any bets though.

 

[coffey1]

If tonight's town hall was any indication, Tory will have hell to pay come election time, if there isn't a better solution.

Lawrence East and Ellesmere would be served by SmartTrack. Adding stations on the Line 2 extension would get very little usage out of them. Unless they ignore the NIMBYs and build high density (like downtown) between the stations.

Well NIMBY's against density ignored around transit areas in this City should be ignored unless they're arguing for serious Health concerns, accessibility or quality of project. Anyhow the Smarttrack Lawrence stop can be removed in favor of the subway. The Ellesmere stop will be light usage in the overall scheme anyway.

Smarttrack can be built almost express to Markham with future stops to be added in future. The Lawrence stop on the subway serves Scarborough as a whole as a much more centrally located stop

In any event if the subway can go surface then Smarttrack should take back seat & build the line to Malvern.

 

[ShonTron]

The project materials are up, including the public presentation from last night:

http://scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/project-materials.html

 

[BurlOak]

The report concluded that building the surface-subway between Kennedy and Sheppard would be feasible, even if the GO lines are double tracked. It would take three years to build, cost $2.23 Billion and necessitate some minor disruptions to Kennedy Station to facilitate construction of a new Line 2 station at Kennedy.

Here is the link to the Metrolinx report: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

I imagine the SRT would be shut down for the 3 years - not that minor of a disruption.

Would there be an RER station at Sheppard (& Kennedy) before this closure occurs? Perhaps buses could be diverted here instead of to STC (which would then require a shuttle to Kennedy).

 

[nhui06]

I really hope we go with the subway option in the SRT corridor. It just makes so much more sense than a long tunnel to one stop.

I am sure that eliminating a Smarttrack station at Lawrence could save some money. Maybe not $600 million but still a significant amount put towards this plan. Shift the funds from that to this.

Then Ellesmere could still be served by Smarttrack.

Another thing to note is that the main concern is the turning radius is too tight for the current subway trains.

I believe that this whole project isn't planned to be done until the next 10 years (2025).

By that time, I assume the T1 trains on Line 2 will need to be replaced.

Why don't we put into the order of new vehicles a requirement for a tighter turning radius?

That way by the time this extension is built, we have newer trains on Line 2 that can navigate the tighter turning radii?

This to me is a no brainer. Saves costs, serves more passengers, no one's house has to be taken. So long as that bend is doable, this should be the replacement. Ellesmere is a ghost station most of the time, SmartTrack/GO RER can just bypass that stop too if they want to save money.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I imagine the SRT would be shut down for the 3 years - not that minor of a disruption.

Would there be an RER station at Sheppard (& Kennedy) before this closure occurs? Perhaps buses could be diverted here instead of to STC (which would then require a shuttle to Kennedy).

The diversion plan would be the same as the diversion plan for the Transit City LRT. Travel patterns would change to account for the shutdown, and the remaining traffic could be accommodated with BRT lanes. It's expected that the shutdown will add 6 minutes to trips on average.

 

[Cobra]

Let's get it built so we can move on to other matters

 

[Cobra]

This to me is a no brainer. Saves costs, serves more passengers, no one's house has to be taken. So long as that bend is doable, this should be the replacement. Ellesmere is a ghost station most of the time, SmartTrack/GO RER can just bypass that stop too if they want to save money.

The disruption would paralyze Scarborough for the duration of the construction and you have to take into account all the added costs that the TTC would have to cover to provide a shuttle service of that magnitude. Like it of not, subway is the best thing to do here.

This isn't Scarborough residents fault.

This is the City of Toronto fault for not doing it from the get go and for shamelessly neglecting the SRT to what it is today.

That's just a personal thought but it's wrong to just impose that on them after the city did screw up the whole Scarborough file for years

 

[salsa]

The project materials are up, including the public presentation from last night:

http://scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/project-materials.html

It was said that the projected ridership is very low for a subway (which is true), but one of the slides compares it to other terminal stations. In this context, it doesn't seem all that bad. Better than Kipling, and probably even more better than the Vaughan extension.

I wonder why Downsview and Don Mills station was not included in this slide?

 

[Cobra]

It was said that the projected ridership is very low for a subway (which is true), but one of the slides compares it to other terminal stations. In this context, it doesn't seem all that bad. Better than Kipling, and probably even more better than the Vaughan extension.


View attachment 77414


I wonder why Downsview and Don Mills station was not included in this slide?

Agreed, that's why all those talks about STC not having the ridership always seemed silly.

This is my analysis

In term of cost:

• LRT made sense in a period when funds were limited and the Feds were nowhere to be found...

• Now we're in an era where the Feds are all in
• The province will introduce revenue tools
• The city of Toronto is looking to do the same....With all those factors, subway makes more sense

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The disruption would paralyze Scarborough for the duration of the constructio

It'll add 6 minutes onto a relatively small fraction of Scarborough transit trips. It's not ideal, but it won't paralyze Scarborough. The increase in travel time would be similar to what Eglinton West commuters have been facing due to construction at that station. I've been living with that construction for years and I'm getting around fine.

 

[nhui06]

The disruption would paralyze Scarborough for the duration of the construction and you have to take into account all the added costs that the TTC would have to cover to provide a shuttle service of that magnitude. Like it of not, subway is the best thing to do here.

This isn't Scarborough residents fault.

This is the City of Toronto fault for not doing it from the get go and for shamelessly neglecting the SRT to what it is today.

That's just a personal thought but it's wrong to just impose that on them after the city did screw up the whole Scarborough file for years

This is still the subway - no? Just not underground. People will manage for the 3 year or so period. Short term pain for long term gain.