Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Kyle Campbell]

Is the fundamental problem here the politicians, or the electorate? We love to blame politicians for our problems, but who is it that keeps putting them into power? At least here in Ontario, a lot of our problems, everything from electricity, to transportation infrastructure, can be traced right back to the short sightedness of voters. Maybe it's time for Ontario voters to ask what they've done to put Ontario in this position, rather than blaming everything on the politicians.

Voters have always been and always will be short sighted. Good politicians make calls that are good for the long term, and then convince the voters that it was the right choice. Most politicians though just go wherever the way the current winds follow regardless of what the cost is long term.

 

[sixrings]

I remember rooting for the transfer LRT plan to fail - because it opened the door to do things better. Sadly, they did not explore what other better options there were.

I remember rooting for the ECLRT tunneling to Don Mills to fail - because it opened the door for a south side alignment that would have the Leslie stop AND have full grade-separation. Sadly, they did not explore the better option.

Now I have decided that nothing can be done correctly until we make major changes (i.e upload rapid transit to the Province and vote for better politicians).

A honest reply from asubway advocate

 

[Rainforest]

A honest reply from asubway advocate

BurlOak is not a subway advocate, at least in the SSE matter.

 

[drum118]

TTC keeps reports about Scarborough RT safety secret from the public

 

[Richard White]

TTC keeps reports about Scarborough RT safety secret from the public

It is likely owing to the election in the fall and in the summer. Nothing worse than a damning report coming just before an election.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It is likely owing to the election in the fall and in the summer. Nothing worse than a damning report coming just before an election.

No, it has to do with proprietary information that is in the report about the condition of the trains. It has information about the overall design of the trucks which was inherited by Bombardier from UTDC are still patent protected.

 

[syn]

With tall-enough and wide-enough bridges, sure. It's just a matter of whether the negatives of building above ground are worth the cost savings (they're not...).

Why not?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Why not?

Either expropriating at least 400 homes (probably more) for a cost of around a billion dollars or killing Stouffville RER for another Billion dollars in political loss

Viaducts aren't cheap either, In Chicago, the Red-line viaduct replacement costs were estimated at around 3 billion US dollars (~4Billion CAD), which was basically that of the subway (Fair note: the viaduct would be for 4 tracks but it would be a replacement and no new properties were to be expropriated).

It also has weather disadvantages which make it unattractive. The cheapest way to go is to build it at grade, but land doesn't exist.

Of course, there's a good chance all these are inaccurate, however, the city isn't even doing a case study analysis which annoys me.

 

[BurlOak]

Either expropriating at least 400 homes (probably more) for a cost of around a billion dollars or killing Stouffville RER for another Billion dollars in political loss

Viaducts aren't cheap either, In Chicago, the Red-line viaduct replacement costs were estimated at around 3 billion US dollars (~4Billion CAD), which was basically that of the subway (Fair note: the viaduct would be for 4 tracks but it would be a replacement and no new properties were to be expropriated).

It also has weather disadvantages which make it unattractive. The cheapest way to go is to build it at grade, but land doesn't exist.

Of course, there's a good chance all these are inaccurate, however, the city isn't even doing a case study analysis which annoys me.

A safe rule of thumb is $10,000 /m2 for elevated bridges and viaducts. For a 10m width, that works out to $100M/km. Cost of tracks, signaling, etc. are extra - but would exist for at grade as well. Elevated stations would also add extra.
It's staging the adds significantly to costs, if you have to temporarily divert traffic onto temporary bridges.

 

[syn]

Either expropriating at least 400 homes (probably more) for a cost of around a billion dollars or killing Stouffville RER for another Billion dollars in political loss

Viaducts aren't cheap either, In Chicago, the Red-line viaduct replacement costs were estimated at around 3 billion US dollars (~4Billion CAD), which was basically that of the subway (Fair note: the viaduct would be for 4 tracks but it would be a replacement and no new properties were to be expropriated).

It also has weather disadvantages which make it unattractive. The cheapest way to go is to build it at grade, but land doesn't exist.

Of course, there's a good chance all these are inaccurate, however, the city isn't even doing a case study analysis which annoys me.

If all of this is true, then it would seem to make the most sense to build a subway when there's the necessary population density and usage to support it. Then they can build more than one stop too.

 

[Streety McCarface]

If all of this is true, then it would seem to make the most sense to build a subway when there's the necessary population density and usage to support it. Then they can build more than one stop too.

Logically, I would see it fit to build a heavy rail line using the cheapest possible construction method since the demand is there (relatively) and is likely to grow if it has direct connections to downtown (to Union via RER or the city via the BD line). However, it's hard to gauge how expensive either will be when bringing the line to the STC since there are capacity limitations for the RER corridor and no construction cost studies whatsoever. We also don't know how high frequencies will be with the RER (and to keep with the status quo, it has to see a train with a capacity of above 500 passengers at least every 5:30 minutes at all times during the day, and this is simply not possible with RER under the current conditions).

 

[Streety McCarface]

A safe rule of thumb is $10,000 /m2 for elevated bridges and viaducts. For a 10m width, that works out to $100M/km. Cost of tracks, signaling, etc. are extra - but would exist for at grade as well. Elevated stations would also add extra.
It's staging the adds significantly to costs, if you have to temporarily divert traffic onto temporary bridges.

Out of curiosity, is that value in US dollars? Because if so, the cost increases about 30-50% with increased labour costs and exchange rates. One also has to consider expropriations in the equation, compensations for increased vibrations and noise, the costs of running shuttle buses to compensate Line 3 for 5-6 years, and the potential loss in ridership costs. Of course, the subway doesn't consider this, however, the vast majority of those costs are all but absorbed.

 

[BurlOak]

Out of curiosity, is that value in US dollars? Because if so, the cost increases about 30-50% with increased labour costs and exchange rates.

No, that's $C.

One also has to consider expropriations in the equation, compensations for increased vibrations and noise

Expropriations - yes, that cost is extra.
I am not sure how much money is being awarded due to the Davenport elevated GO line. How about the ECLRT as it passes through Scarborough. I would guess this cost is pretty close to $0.

the costs of running shuttle buses to compensate Line 3 for 5-6 years, and the potential loss in ridership costs. Of course, the subway doesn't consider this, however, the vast majority of those costs are all but absorbed.

Shuttle bus costs are extra as well. They could be minimized by sending more buses to Agincourt Station and/or Eglinton GO and allowing TTC fare (SmartTrack).

 

[Streety McCarface]

I am not sure how much money is being awarded due to the Davenport elevated GO line. How about the ECLRT as it passes through Scarborough. I would guess this cost is pretty close to $0.

But that's an LRT line, not a heavy rail subway which is a lot noisier. We must also consider that the ECLRT hasn't gone through the Lawsuit stage, but it most certainly will once it opens.

 

[BurlOak]

But that's an LRT line, not a heavy rail subway which is a lot noisier. We must also consider that the ECLRT hasn't gone through the Lawsuit stage, but it most certainly will once it opens.

I think the Barrie GO train is heavy rail.
Will any lawsuit be related to ongoing noise during operation.
Probably complaints are noise during construction that exceeded some earlier commitments, and of course disruption during construction.