narduch
Senior Member
Yes. But you will have to wait years for the studies to be completed.
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Yes. But you will have to wait years for the studies to be completed.
robmausser
Senior Member
Yes it was floated by the Liberal transportation minister in 2014.
It would require a new Kennedy station, to demolish some buildings around the curve at Ellesmere, to rebuild the elevated portion of the SRT to handle the weight of subway cars, and if we want 3 track RER in the Stouffville corridor, elevation above that area as well.
A lot of if's.
OneCity
Senior Member
Yes it was floated by the Liberal transportation minister in 2014.
It would require a new Kennedy station, to demolish some buildings around the curve at Ellesmere, to rebuild the elevated portion of the SRT to handle the weight of subway cars, and if we want 3 track RER in the Stouffville corridor, elevation above that area as well.
A lot of if's.
It was conceptually budgeted under Torys subway corridor review. Dont have the report on hand but it was estimated at that time just a shade under $3B. Extra costs aside the current corridor is in the best location if they chose to add stops at either Lawrence-Hospitals and/or Eglinton/Danforth intersection compared to stops on the RT line alignment. With no stops along this subway route its sad
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Rainforest
Senior Member
And, you are wrong
[Which is only natural, since you are pulling your assumption out of thin air.]Back in 2013, I was slightly in favor of the subway option, but wouldn't see it as a problem if the City Council just went along with SLRT that was the official plan.
Certainly I didn't cheer and jeer, "kill it, kill it, kill it."
Unlike some folks on this thread, who obviously have nothing better to fill their lives with than to attack SSE.
Rainforest
Senior Member
IMO, transit lines should be ranked based on the average speed, rather than a short section that may be slower than the rest of the line. The average speed of Line 1 is 30 kph, Line 2 is 32 kph.
Of course we can change the definitions, and say that everything with average speed faster than say 20 kph is rapid transit. Then, 100% of the planned Toronto LRT lines will be rapid transit. However, then we should count express buses as rapid transit, too.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Not unless you piss off a lot of people, but this extension is already pissing off a lot of people so I don't see why not.
I'd argue that rapid transit should be 30 km/h or greater, and I don't believe that the average speed of the Yonge line is less than that of the Bloor Danforth line.
sixrings
Senior Member
You suggested that I or others are hoping to celebrate (celebrate was your word) the extension being cancelled. When one uses the word celebrate I envision myself sending out custom invites declaring that we won and having people over with noise makers and a giant Subway pinata that we break with candy Scarborough gummy bears coming out. No one is cheering and jeering as you describe "kill it, kill it, kill it." Also you seem to suggest that those who are against this plan are against infrastructure in general as if we have no plans of LRT which by the way is also infrastructure. Now you are trying to paint yourself as a reasonable transit enthusiast who simply favored the subway option slightly over the LRT plan. One subway stop is slightly favored to you then 46 LRT stops. Congrats. As for my life it is perfectly fine thank you very much, particularly in regards to transit in proximity to my house. Actually my quality of life has substantially improved since I moved away from Scarborough. That is not a subtle jab but it is the truth especially in the case of mobility. Finally please don't categorize me with the word "folks." That politically used word, by people with money to sound as if they are of the people, should be kept for the simple people who vote for the simple politicians who use simple words.And, you are wrong
Back in 2013, I was slightly in favor of the subway option, but wouldn't see it as a problem if the City Council just went along with SLRT that was the official plan.
Certainly I didn't cheer and jeer, "kill it, kill it, kill it."
Unlike some folks on this thread, who obviously have nothing better to fill their lives with than to attack SSE.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
If this is the definition you want to use, then the TTC doesn't operate a rapid transit service. No TTC line runs consistently over 30 km/h. Planned service speeds are frequently lower than that (look at the TTC service summaries). This is especially true for downtown Line 1 and Line 2, which operate around (or in many cases, less than) 20 km/h, which is slower than the slowest sections of Toronto's light rail.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Line one is scheduled to complete the 38.8 km run in 1 hr and 20 minutes, so you're correct in assuming that the line's average speed is around 29 km/h, however, this is probably due to the slow zone on the line. Line 2 can do 26.2 km in 52 minutes, so 30 km/h. Sheppard line does 5.5 km in 8 minutes, so that one is at 41.25 km/h. Line 3 does 6.4 km/h in 13 minutes, so 29.5 km/h. These are all about 30 km/h or better.
sixrings
Senior Member
Well I think the Subway trains are slow in comparison to GO trains. Therefore Subways are not Rapid transit but GO trains are rapid transit. GO trains are rapid transit because I arbitrarily decided the standard.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
There has to be some threshold. You can't say that the 22 km/h Finch west line is rapid transit when it's only going to be 2-3 km/h faster than the express bus. If one is going to set a threshold, a comparison has to be made between it and a "lower order" method of transit that would take it's place. For the subways, this would be an express bus line or a streetcar line. For instance, the Sheppard subway runs at appx 41 km/h. Compared to the bus, which is somewhere around 18 km/h, it is most certainly rapid transit.
For the GO lines, the replacement method would be a GO bus. In many areas of the system, the GO train is significantly faster the bus, especially the closer you get to Toronto. However, once you get to the outskirts of the GTA, the whole thing falls apart. The 30 GO bus from Bramalea to Kitchener takes the same amount of time as the train (however, once you factor in that it doesn't stop at any other station, it becomes apparent that the GO transit line is rapid with respect to Guelph, Georgetown, Acton, etc).
Another defining feature of Rapid Transit is usually grade separation, so it's really difficult for a city bus to fall into this category.
With respect to certain LRT lines like the Eglinton Crosstown and iON, I would consider them rapid transit lines when they have a full right of way, so for the crosstown, this would be from Mt Dennis to Science Centre, and for iON, it would be the section from Northfield Station to Uptown Waterloo. It just so happens that in these areas, both lines will likely run at speeds at or greater than 30 km/h.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
Rainforest
Senior Member
Yes. Some people here were musing how great they will feel if the subway plan collapses.
That's how you put it, not how I put it.
I suggest that some people may be short-sighted, and their position may end up being negative for the infrastructure. I didn't say they are genuinely against infrastructure.
No need "trying"; I am reasonable.
Your sarcasm completely misses the mark. Congrats.
One strategic subway connection will help the riders more than the minor improvements at 40 stops. All of those stops already have bus service, many have express bus as well, some of the remaining stops (eastern section of Sheppard) may get express bus if we choose to run one.
Moreover, all those 46 stops together will actually cost more than SSE.
Good for you, congrats again.
For the record, I don't live in Scarborough either. I live in North York, west of Yonge. Either solution for Scarborough transit will not affect my travel much.
However, I observe a disturbing level of contempt and arrogance displayed by some of the SSE opponents on this forum. That's the main reason I monitor this thread, and am trying to counter their attacks when I have a chance.
If you wish so, I will use terms "people" or "posters" when responding to your posts.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I remember rooting for the transfer LRT plan to fail - because it opened the door to do things better. Sadly, they did not explore what other better options there were.
I remember rooting for the ECLRT tunneling to Don Mills to fail - because it opened the door for a south side alignment that would have the Leslie stop AND have full grade-separation. Sadly, they did not explore the better option.
Now I have decided that nothing can be done correctly until we make major changes (i.e upload rapid transit to the Province and vote for better politicians).
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is the fundamental problem here the politicians, or the electorate? We love to blame politicians for our problems, but who is it that keeps putting them into power? At least here in Ontario, a lot of our problems, everything from electricity, to transportation infrastructure, can be traced right back to the short sightedness of voters. Maybe it's time for Ontario voters to ask what they've done to put Ontario in this position, rather than blaming everything on the politicians.