Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

I am not sure how much money is being awarded due to the Davenport elevated GO line. How about the ECLRT as it passes through Scarborough. I would guess this cost is pretty close to $0.

I'd like to know how much has been awarded to areas hard hit by exposed or elevated subways. There's many. Look around High Park...it's destitute. Couldn't give a house away even if you wanted to. Imagine wanting an X7 but only being able to afford an X5. The horror.

But that's an LRT line, not a heavy rail subway which is a lot noisier. We must also consider that the ECLRT hasn't gone through the Lawsuit stage, but it most certainly will once it opens.

Why would LRT by default be less noisy than subway. If anything I'd think the increased weight of an LRV vs subway would make it noisier. But so long as track maintenance is up to par, and the vehicle isn't old and rattling/squealing, both should work out to be roughly the same.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'd like to know how much has been awarded to areas hard hit by exposed or elevated subways. There's many. Look around High Park...it's destitute. Couldn't give a house away even if you wanted to. Imagine wanting an X7 but only being able to afford an X5. The horror.

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Why would LRT by default be less noisy than subway. If anything I'd think the increased weight of an LRV vs subway would make it noisier. But so long as track maintenance is up to par, and the vehicle isn't old and rattling/squealing, both should work out to be roughly the same.

I've come to expect the worst from people, especially those living in Cabbagetown that complain about the noise from the Cherry St Streetcar. I would assume there would be issues here as well. The GO line's immediate area is zoned for industrial development. If you build a subway viaduct along McCowan, people are going to most certainly complain, especially when the option to bury the line was once considered (this was not the case with the BD line, and most people moved to the area knowing the risks).

 

[WislaHD]

Question: is there any alignment that could result in this being entirely above ground? If not, why?

Yes, bulldoze everything.

I don't know if that is even a joke anymore.

Expropriating one side of McCowan for an above ground subway line would be cheaper at this point. You could even add in the Lawrence East stop.

(which given the exuberantly high property costs in this city at the moment, speaks volumes on the expenses of this one-stop subway line.)

 

[Rainforest]

Large-scale expropriation would be unpopular these days, even if sensible financially.

If there is still appetite for re-design, here is a somewhat realistic way of putting roughly half of the subway length above ground.

Similar to the Glen Murray's proposal, but with the STC station and adjacent tracks underground. Howether, there would be a 3-km or 3.5-km middle section running above ground, and a surface Lawrence East station in the same location as today.

New Kennedy station would be needed.

 

[JSF-1]

^That alignment is out of the question due to GO RER needing the land for its track expansion. The only way you could fit the two into the corridor would be either expand the corridor which would require expropriations (this would be the easiest), or (and this one is pure fantasy) interline the Subway with the GO Lines (like in Tokyo) but this would require an immense amount of work that as I said its pure fantasy (although its not impossible, the conditions are perfect for it to be done to the BD at both ends).

 

[syn]

So essentially, any sensible path that would allow the subway to run above ground has already been taken up by another transit project which will be more effective at accomplishing what the SSE is supposed to accomplish - getting people downtown.

 

[Streety McCarface]

So essentially, any sensible path that would allow the subway to run above ground has already been taken up by another transit project which will be more effective at accomplishing what the SSE is supposed to accomplish - getting people downtown.

The SSE is not supposed to get people strictly to downtown. It is to connect the STC to the subway system -- the thing that gets everyone to every part of the city. It's been proven that Regional Rail will not shorten travel times to any area of downtown outside of Union Station.

Also, anyone living in the majority of Scarborough already takes GO to Union if they work around there because it is faster. Anywhere else, people take the TTC because, you guessed it, it's faster for them.

And this is the wrong thread for debate.

 

[Rainforest]

^That alignment is out of the question due to GO RER needing the land for its track expansion. The only way you could fit the two into the corridor would be either expand the corridor which would require expropriations (this would be the easiest), or (and this one is pure fantasy) interline the Subway with the GO Lines (like in Tokyo) but this would require an immense amount of work that as I said its pure fantasy (although its not impossible, the conditions are perfect for it to be done to the BD at both ends).

Indeed, we won't see interlining between the existing Line 2 subway and the GO / SmartTrack lines; that would involve too much changes to the existing infrastructure.

Regarding the Uxbridge corridor width, it should be possible to fit 2 subway tracks and 2 mainline rail tracks. The only problem is that 2 Lawrence East stations probably wouldn't fit. The subway would serve Lawrence East while the GO / SmartTrack trains would skip it. Not a huge problem, actually.

The main reason they aren't doing it is that SRT would have to be shut down for most of the construction period, forcing a lot of shuttle buses between STC and Kennedy.

I'm not saying the SSE planners are right in shunning the Uxbridge Sub Corridor route option. In fact, I would probably revisit that option right after it was decided to drop the Lawrence East/McCowan and Sheppard/McCowan stops, eliminating all advantages of the McCowan route.

However, I kind of understand their reluctance in this matter.

 

[syn]

The SSE is not supposed to get people strictly to downtown. It is to connect the STC to the subway system -- the thing that gets everyone to every part of the city. It's been proven that Regional Rail will not shorten travel times to any area of downtown outside of Union Station.

Also, anyone living in the majority of Scarborough already takes GO to Union if they work around there because it is faster. Anywhere else, people take the TTC because, you guessed it, it's faster for them.

And this is the wrong thread for debate.

Then why are you debating it?

Apparently there is no way possible to put this above ground. Since it's now stuck underground, how much will the price increase for this project after the next update? It's almost guaranteed to be over $4 billion, with $5 billion a real possibility. What happens if it's more?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Indeed, we won't see interlining between the existing Line 2 subway and the GO / SmartTrack lines; that would involve too much changes to the existing infrastructure.

Regarding the Uxbridge corridor width, it should be possible to fit 2 subway tracks and 2 mainline rail tracks. The only problem is that 2 Lawrence East stations probably wouldn't fit. The subway would serve Lawrence East while the GO / SmartTrack trains would skip it. Not a huge problem, actually.

The main reason they aren't doing it is that SRT would have to be shut down for most of the construction period, forcing a lot of shuttle buses between STC and Kennedy.

I'm not saying the SSE planners are right in shunning the Uxbridge Sub Corridor route option. In fact, I would probably revisit that option right after it was decided to drop the Lawrence East/McCowan and Sheppard/McCowan stops, eliminating all advantages of the McCowan route.

However, I kind of understand their reluctance in this matter.

Given that the SRT vehicles might not survive long enough to complete the SSE anyway, they really should give up the sacred cow of keeping it running during construction. I can tell you the shutdown of the transitway in Ottawa has sucked while the confederation line is built, but we put up with it knowing it's a few years of pain for a big gain. I suspect the same would be true in Scarborough, and the savings could be used to retain several of the stations that would be lost under the current plan.

That being said it's too late now, how close are we to an actual contract being tendered?

 

[Rainforest]

Given that the SRT vehicles might not survive long enough to complete the SSE anyway, they really should give up the sacred cow of keeping it running during construction. I can tell you the shutdown of the transitway in Ottawa has sucked while the confederation line is built, but we put up with it knowing it's a few years of pain for a big gain. I suspect the same would be true in Scarborough, and the savings could be used to retain several of the stations that would be lost under the current plan.

That being said it's too late now, how close are we to an actual contract being tendered?

I don't know all details. I think the City Council still has to vote on the final design and funding allocation before any contract can be tendered.

That won't happen until after the municipal elections later this year.

I wouldn't be totally surprised if John Tory, having won the re-election (note he isn't interested in running again in 2022), switches the gear and leans towards the Uxbridge Corridor subway plan. Still a subway and an extension of Line 2, but cheaper, at the expense of short-term pains of shutting down the SRT before the new rail connection is ready.

Or maybe not; business as usual, and the subway takes the McCowan route. We will find out in a few months.

 

[robmausser]

^That alignment is out of the question due to GO RER needing the land for its track expansion. The only way you could fit the two into the corridor would be either expand the corridor which would require expropriations (this would be the easiest), or (and this one is pure fantasy) interline the Subway with the GO Lines (like in Tokyo) but this would require an immense amount of work that as I said its pure fantasy (although its not impossible, the conditions are perfect for it to be done to the BD at both ends).

During the LRT/Subway debates during Tory/Wong election, Metrolinx was quoted with saying that even with the Scarborough LRT choice, GO-RER was still possible in that corridor. They would only double track through that area, but triple track north and south.

Small pinch points like this are OK, with proper signalling and triple tracking later on for express service.

So I can't see how a subway line would be any different. its only marginally wider than the existing RT.

 

[micheal_can]

What about stacking the future Subway tracks? Would that allow the triple track?

 

[robmausser]

What about stacking the future Subway tracks? Would that allow the triple track?

You could elevate above the train tracks but that will cause issues with the existing road overpasses, so they would have to elevate very high.

It would end up costing as much as tunneling probably, or close to it.

 

[Amare]

Tory isnt going to like this; the current chief planner (just like his predecessor) is essentially stating the Scarborough subway proposal is not an adequate way to spend city resources.

https://www.toronto.com/news-story/...carborough-subway-is-not-a-good-use-of-money/