Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

My problem is that this entire line is absurdly expensive for the improvements it provides. I'm not interested in spending more money than necessary.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion about the utility of the whole subway project. We have to agree to disagree on that matter

But if the subway is getting built, it makes a lot of sense to add a station in the Eglinton & Danforth area.

 

[Rainforest]

A rough analysis:
According to Neptis, elevated LRT costs approximately $175 Million/km. The distance that would need to be elevated (Laird to Kennedy) is 8.5 km.

Elevated (Laird to Kennedy): 175 M * 8.5 km = $1,487.5 Million

The at grade portion of ECLRT is $55m/km. Since this structure will no longer be built, we need to subtract it from the total.
$1,487.5 M - ($55 M * 8.5 km) = $1,020 M

Finally, add the $1,800 M price of the SLRT.
$1,020 M + $1,800M = $2,820

The additional costs to elevate the ECLRT from Laird to Kennedy is approximately $2.82 Billion

The additional costs to build the Scarborough Subway is $3.52 Billion, $700 Million more than the Eglinton elevation option.

Of all the comparable alternatives that I've seen, including RER and SLRT + ECLRT elevation, the Subway has always come out as the most expensive option, at best providing an insignificant improvement in travel times, and at worst being slower than the more economical alternatives.

I think that this calculation is incomplete. The option of (elevated Eglinton plus SLRT plus through-running) is not sustainable without DRL subway, going to Eglinton Don Mills and diverting a fair number of downtown-bound riders from Yonge subway. The cost of DRL needs to be added to the cost of that option, and this is quite a bit more than $1 billion.

One can say that DRL is needed anyway; that's true, but we are not going to see it up and running to Don Mills for at least 15 years, and perhaps much more. Meanwhile, a Scarborough solution is needed within 5 - 7 years.

 

[quicksilver]

Of all the imcumbents, De Baeremaeker was on top of the list of councillors I wanted gone. He's easily the worst councillor. The guy has no integrity and has no problem saddling the City with debt just because he got spooked by Rob Ford. Such a scumbag.

I swear on Doug Ford's potty mouth that I sat in the Scarborough Civic Centre chambers in 2010 listening to Glenn De Baeremaeker explain how his constituents (Read: Oxford Properties, Kevric Real Estate Corporation) complained to him when he made the tough but right decision that an LRT line through STC to Sheppard Avenue and Markham Road, instead of a subway, was the right decision for the area.

My own Councilor Raymond Cho, the relic, has equally flip flopped between LRT and Subway on Sheppard every time the wind or his party backers change. None of these guys (or gals) were swift enough--and they are career politicians--to recognize in 2010 that when Mayor Rob Ford ordered the TTC to stop construction of the Sheppard East LRT, he did not have the authority to do so. In that future world where the SELRT was built, we've already been riding it for a year.

Simply, the area and the city need better representation. BUILD OR GET OFF THE POT!

 

[quicksilver]

What does a train say when it is moving down the tracks? Choo choo!

What does a train say when it doesn't go anywhere? Cho cho!

 

[BurlOak]

My own Councilor Raymond Cho, the relic, has equally flip flopped between LRT and Subway on Sheppard every time the wind or his party backers change. None of these guys (or gals) were swift enough--and they are career politicians--to recognize in 2010 that when Mayor Rob Ford ordered the TTC to stop construction of the Sheppard East LRT, he did not have the authority to do so. In that future world where the SELRT was built, we've already been riding it for a year.

Simply, the area and the city need better representation. BUILD OR GET OFF THE POT!

If memory serves me right, half the councillors in Toronto flip-flopped on LRT vs. Subway. Everyone like to blame Ford, or GDB, or Cho, but it was really councillors from all over Toronto that flip-flopped.

 

[ksun]

My problem is that this entire line is absurdly expensive for the improvements it provides. I'm not interested in spending more money than necessary.

As for Oakwood, that station is awfully close to Allen Station, though removing it would create a 1.2 km gap between Dufferin and Allen. If the ECLRT is at risk at going over budget, Oakwood would be one of the first stations I'd look at eliminating.

I still have a hard time understanding why a 3 stop subway line has a budget of 3 billion (or did I read the numbers wrong?)

 

[ShonTron]

Of all the imcumbents, De Baeremaeker was on top of the list of councillors I wanted gone. He's easily the worst councillor. The guy has no integrity and has no problem saddling the City with debt just because he got spooked by Rob Ford. Such a scumbag.

The right has Denzil Minnan-Wrong, Mammoliti, and now Jimmy K. The left has Glen De Baeremaeker and Anthony Perruzza.

But come on. Giorgio Mammoliti is still by far the worst councillor. And Jimmy K will be stiff competition this year.

 

[quicksilver]

But come on. Giorgio Mammoliti is still by far the worst councillor.

Agree!

 

[Cooper]

I swear on Doug Ford's potty mouth that I sat in the Scarborough Civic Centre chambers in 2010 listening to Glenn De Baeremaeker explain how his constituents (Read: Oxford Properties, Kevric Real Estate Corporation) complained to him when he made the tough but right decision that an LRT line through STC to Sheppard Avenue and Markham Road, instead of a subway, was the right decision for the area....

You might like this. It's Glen rhapsodizing in 2012 about the virtues of LRT, the "iPad" of transit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wocUjI1awSk

 

[BurlOak]

Aside: can we stop with the ridiculousness about elevating the LRT? It's not going to happen, and the absolutely only reason to even think about doing it would be to pander to the dimbulbs that have had this 'bright idea' 10 years after everyone else.

I agree that the elevated Eglinton will most likely not happen. There are 3 possible outcomes.

1. Continue with the Subway extension, which will take 3 years of planning and 7 years of construction.
2. Switch to the Transit City LRT plan, which will mean another 5 or 6 years of debates, flip-flops, additional delay fees, and 4 or 5 years construction.
3. A compromise is found which serves the people better, is lower cost than the subway, and can be completed in 5 or 6 years - the same timelines as the ECLRT.

The elevated option fits into the third - which is not being explored and has little chance of being implemented.

 

[quicksilver]

I agree that the elevated Eglinton will most likely not happen. There are 3 possible outcomes.

1. Continue with the Subway extension, which will take 3 years of planning and 7 years of construction.
2. Switch to the Transit City LRT plan, which will mean another 5 or 6 years of debates, flip-flops, additional delay fees, and 4 or 5 years construction.
3. A compromise is found which serves the people better, is lower cost than the subway, and can be completed in 5 or 6 years - the same timelines as the ECLRT.

The elevated option fits into the third - which is not being explored and has little chance of being implemented.

I like your compromise but I envision a different solution, elevation as an option not a rule. My compromised idea is to extend the ECLRT, with the Flexity LRT technology, but on the same path as the current subway plan going on street where possible, underground where necessary and elevated only where it makes sense to the surroundings. People going west from Scarborough, I think, don't care whether they're going along Eglinton or Bloor/Danforth. They're likely going to transfer at Yonge anyway. This also has the benefit of moving the traffic out of the bursting Yonge/Bloor Station.

-On street Kennedy to Danforth Rd
-Portal somewhere around Danforth/Eglinton
-Underground to STC
-After STC there's a choice to be made. McCowan north or south of the 401 doesn't have enough road capacity for the cars using it now. There's no room to share the road. But at the 401, a bridge (elevation) can be built in much the same way that one crosses North from Yorkdale.
-On the North side of 401 the solution must go back underground because its (1) residential and (2) there's no room on the road. The McCowan Station is therefore underground.

What does technology matter? I'm agnostic. Didn't we already order a bunch of Bombardier train sets we're responsible for? I know that TTC has disconnected, in its mind, the possibility of running the Eglinton and Scarborough routes as a continuous service. But I think they should reconsider. Maybe the new management thinks so too. Andy Byford are you there?

 

[BurlOak]

I like your compromise but I envision a different solution, elevation as an option not a rule. My compromised idea is to extend the ECLRT, with the Flexity LRT technology, but on the same path as the current subway going on street where possible, underground where necessary and elevated only where it makes sense to the surroundings. People going west from Scarborough, I think, don't care whether they're going along Eglinton or Bloor/Danforth. They're likely going to transfer at Yonge anyway. This also has the benefit of moving the traffic out of the bursting Yonge/Bloor Station.

-On street Kennedy to Danforth Rd
-Portal somewhere around Danforth/Eglinton
-Underground to STC
-After STC there's a choice to be made. McCowan north or south of the 401 doesn't have enough road capacity for the cars using it now. There's no room to share the road. But at the 401, a bridge (elevation) can be built in much the same way that one crosses North from Yorkdale.
-On the North side of 401 the solution must go back underground because its (1) residential and (2) there's no room on the road. The McCowan Station is therefore underground.

What does technology matter? I'm agnostic. Didn't we already order a bunch of Bombardier train sets we're responsible for? I know that TTC has disconnected, in its mind, the possibility of running the Eglinton and Scarborough routes as a continuous service. But I think they should reconsider. Maybe the new management thinks so too. Andy Byford are you there?

When it was studied, the conclusion was that on-street LRT could not handle the volume of passengers (about 11k) coming from STC through Kennedy and along Eglinton to Yonge-Eg. That is the reason to support elevation. Also, the number of passengers from STC towards Kennedy would be about 12k - again meaning that on-street could not handle it and thus the choice of grade-separation (in rail corridor).

When Metrolinx was faced with these numbers, there thought process was to either grade-separate the entire Eglinton portion, or to force all the riders off at Kennedy and onto the B-D Subway. In 2009, they chose the latter, in 2012, they chose the former.

I am not sure if you disagree with the projections (11,000 and 12,000 pphpd value (in 2031)), or is you disagree with that threshold on what can be handled by on-street LRT.

 

[quicksilver]

When it was studied, the conclusion was that on-street LRT could not handle the volume of passengers (about 11k) coming from STC through Kennedy and along Eglinton to Yonge-Eg. That is the reason to support elevation. Also, the number of passengers from STC towards Kennedy would be about 12k - again meaning that on-street could not handle it and thus the choice of grade-separation (in rail corridor).

When Metrolinx was faced with these numbers, there thought process was to either grade-separate the entire Eglinton portion, or to force all the riders off at Kennedy and onto the B-D Subway. In 2009, they chose the latter, in 2012, they chose the former.

I am not sure if you disagree with the projections (11,000 and 12,000 pphpd value (in 2031)), or is you disagree with that threshold on what can be handled by on-street LRT.

Thank you for those links. My suspicion--completely untested--is that because the route is splitting westward at Kennedy, there are enough mechanisms to encourage enough riders to transfer from the Scarborough/Eglinton line to Bloor/Danforth that overloading of the ECLRT going west from Kennedy would be manageable. These "mechanisms" could be one of those annoying public announcements saying something like "To get downtown faster, transfer to Bloor/Danforth," it could be making the "other train" easily accessible (or even visible), and if necessary it could be shorturns or managed delays east of Kennedy.

 

[ehlow]

The right has Denzil Minnan-Wrong, Mammoliti, and now Jimmy K. The left has Glen De Baeremaeker and Anthony Perruzza.

But come on. Giorgio Mammoliti is still by far the worst councillor. And Jimmy K will be stiff competition this year.

Listening to councillors talk about transit during a council meeting is for the most part absolutely brutal. Their lack of knowledge can be mind-blowing sometimes, there's nothing worse than hearing whining about "fairness", "equality", "deserve". Yes you guys are real civil rights leaders.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Haha. Great video, TM. I love how it's a short synopsis of hectic Toronto. Rush-rush, disjointed pathways, friendly people chatting and holding doors open, distant sirens, and (mostly fake) Canada Goose logos galore.

Councillor De Baeremaeker wants to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build an Eglinton-Danforth Station on Line 2:

An Eglinton-Danforth station could make sense. The station could a have a bus bay, which buses from the east would use instead of Kennedy station. There is some density north along Danforth, and some redevelop potential in the plazas around there.

Assuming we're building this subway, if it's justified I don't have a problem with a station here.

Well if we are building this subway, we might as well built it right.

How about we keep this one in budget. If they want a Danforth Station, then eliminate Scarborough Centre, Sheppard or Lawrence. I think Lawrence makes most sense to kill. This $150 Million can be spent more producively.

If not, then this Councilor can grab themselves a shovel and dig the station themselves. I'll even donate $500 for building supplies and snacks or something.

Exactly. We're already spending billions on this tunnel, yet we won't spend an extra $150 million for a 4th station?



I've got to disagree here. Lawrence bus route is pretty frequent & busy bus route, and lots of people will probably transfer to the subway at the Lawrence station.

STC is essential, and so is Sheppard. They are all more important than Eg-Danforth, so if I had to choose 3 it would be Lawrence, Sheppard, STC/Ellesmere.

Well I never said it made more sense to built Danforth, I said that if this Councillor wants a station on Danforth, one of the other stations has to go if the project is to stay within budget. If one of the stations has to go, Lawrence makes the most sense. But would I kill Lawrence to build Danforth? No

I don't think that scenario would happen. They'll likely either add Eg-Danforth station to the other 3 or not. They won't remove another one to build the Eg-Danforth station.

Kennedy station will connect with the crosstown and RER Stouffville line. I don't see the logic of removing buses from this major mobility hub by terminating them at a new station just down the road (and at a cost of $200 million). The "some density" that you describe would be better served by the Scarborough-Malvern LRT from the Transit City plan, which would replace most of those buses in the first place.

That number proved to be horse shit long time ago. The city is sinking almost a billion dollars into this vanity project, even without this extra station.

LRT is evil. War on cars. Blah blah blah.

But you are not against the underground Oakwood station on Eglinton LRT, are you?

Both stations will have similar costs, and the Eglinton-Danforth station will likely have higher usage.

$200 million is not a very large amount on the scale of this project, and the station will be well placed both for walk-in and transfer users. It will beat many existing stations on the rider counts; for example Castle Frank, Old Mill, Summerhill, Dupont, Bessarion.

IMO, Eglinton buses (34, 86, 116) should continue running to Kennedy even if a new subway station is added at Eglinton and Danforth. However, Brimley North and South buses can be combined into one route, that connects to the new station and no longer runs to Kennedy. The 16 McCowan - Danforth bus does that already. This will be consistent with the TTC's most common grid service pattern.

My problem is that this entire line is absurdly expensive for the improvements it provides. I'm not interested in spending more money than necessary.

As for Oakwood, that station is awfully close to Allen Station, though removing it would create a 1.2 km gap between Dufferin and Allen. If the ECLRT is at risk at going over budget, Oakwood would be one of the first stations I'd look at eliminating.

I told you guys this would happen!! The gap between Kennedy and Woburn (Brimley-Danforth-Lawrence) is way too large not the have any stops, and it would increase the cost. Plus not the Scarborough Malvern LRT will never be built because of this station. This subway will cost 5.5 billion when built, bank on it.