Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Take the bus to Kennedy. We don't need stations in walking range.

1,200 m is hardly a walking range.

When discussing Sheppard East LRT, it appears that we can't even increase the stop spacing from 400 m to 800 m. Potential riders cannot be bothered to walk up to 400 m to the next stop. But for the subway, a 1,200 m walk is somehow acceptable.

 

[BurlOak]

Cost overruns and this station. I can easily see the station become 500 million, happens all the time everywhere else.

We're stuck with the subway thanks to JT.

Tory?

It was really Stintz and DeBaerMaker, as well as Hunter, Murray and Wynne during 2013.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

1,200 m is hardly a walking range.

When discussing Sheppard East LRT, it appears that we can't even increase the stop spacing from 400 m to 800 m. Potential riders cannot be bothered to walk up to 400 m to the next stop. But for the subway, a 1,200 m walk is somehow acceptable.

This is an absurd argument to make. Of course 1,200m is acceptable. This is how we've been been building rapid transit for decades. Just look at Vaughan, or Highway 407, or Steeles West, or Finch West, or Downsview, or Sheppard West, or Wilson, or Eglinton West, or St. Clair West, or Eglinton, or Lawrence, or York Mills, or Sheppard-Yonge, or Finch, or Bayview, or Bessarion, or Leslie, or Don Mills, or Warden, or Kennedy, or Lawrence East stations.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Lakeshore East RER and Stouffville RER will have very limited capacity, until the downtown RER tunnel is built.

How limited is the capacity?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Without the subway extension, many downtown-bound riders from Scarborough will have to transfer from buses to LRT to BD subway to YUS subway. The subway extension makes their trip more convenient.

I'm okay with that. The transfer from Line 3 to Line 2 is a few metres.

I've made the transfer from SRT to Line 2 for months, and never would I propose spending $3.5 Billion dollars to eliminate it. The transfer isn't that bad and the money could be better used elsewhere.

Plus we also have Stouffville RER and Lakeshore East RER, which will greatly reduce the number of people who have to make that transfer. It's unfortunate that we don't yet have any reports on how much the two RER lines will diminish usage of Line 2.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Take the bus to Kennedy. We don't need stations in walking range.

As I pointed out several times, through-routing of Scarbrough LRT and elevated Eglinton LRT is not viable unless DRL is added.

Lakeshore East RER and Stouffville RER will have very limited capacity, until the downtown RER tunnel is built. Downtown RER tunnel is a long shot.

Without the subway extension, many downtown-bound riders from Scarborough will have to transfer from buses to LRT to BD subway to YUS subway. The subway extension makes their trip more convenient.



Then you should conclude that about 20% of the existing subway stations are equally or more absurd, as well as the planned underground Oakwood, Caledonia, Mt Pleasant stations of Eglinton LRT.

It puzzles me that, amid all talk about walk-in accessibility and transit-oriented development, we balk at adding a station that will be very well used.

1,200 m is hardly a walking range.

When discussing Sheppard East LRT, it appears that we can't even increase the stop spacing from 400 m to 800 m. Potential riders cannot be bothered to walk up to 400 m to the next stop. But for the subway, a 1,200 m walk is somehow acceptable.

Tory?

It was really Stintz and DeBaerMaker, as well as Hunter, Murray and Wynne during 2013.

This is an absurd argument to make. Of course 1,200m is acceptable. This is how we've been been building rapid transit for decades. Just look at Vaughan, or Highway 407, or Steeles West, or Finch West, or Downsview, or Sheppard West, or Wilson, or Eglinton West, or St. Clair West, or Eglinton, or Lawrence, or York Mills, or Sheppard-Yonge, or Finch, or Bayview, or Bessarion, or Leslie, or Don Mills, or Warden, or Kennedy, or Lawrence East stations.

I'm okay with that. The transfer from Line 3 to Line 2 is a few metres.

I've made the transfer from SRT to Line 2 for months, and never would I propose spending $3.5 Billion dollars to eliminate it. The transfer isn't that bad and the money could be better used elsewhere.

Plus we also have Stouffville RER and Lakeshore East RER, which will greatly reduce the number of people who have to make that transfer. It's unfortunate that we don't yet have any reports on how much the two RER lines will diminish usage of Line 2.

Well overall, if we don't build the subway, people will have to transfer to downtown. If we do, people we will have to transfer to downtown. There is still the chance the SELRT gets killed, so to everyone, how do we explain to those east of McCowan that you still have to take the bus?? The transfer is being move from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre. Lateral move with no cost benefit. BurlOak, Tory supports this mess.

 

[Rainforest]

This is an absurd argument to make. Of course 1,200m is acceptable. This is how we've been been building rapid transit for decades. Just look at Vaughan, or Highway 407, or Steeles West, or Finch West, or Downsview, or Sheppard West, or Wilson, or Eglinton West, or St. Clair West, or Eglinton, or Lawrence, or York Mills, or Sheppard-Yonge, or Finch, or Bayview, or Bessarion, or Leslie, or Don Mills, or Warden, or Kennedy, or Lawrence East stations.

If you don't like the conclusion, it does not make my argument absurd.

Old part of the subway network has much closer stop spacing. I am not even talking about downtown (south of Bloor). Look at Yonge between Bloor and Eglinton, it is 800 m average. BD subway between Jane and Main follows a 700 - 800 m spacing pattern. Many of those stations have lower usage than the proposed Eglinton & Danforth station.

Even the outer sections you mentioned, have gaps of 2 km or less. Vaughan extension 6 stations (7 spaces) per 8.5 km length, the average is about 1,200 m, which means walking distance is 600 m or less in most cases.

Without the Eglinton & Danforth station, the gap between Kennedy and Lawrence will be about 3.5 km; this is comparable only to the Vic Park - Warden and Warden - Kennedy gaps, but beats even those two.

There is no good reason not to add that station.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm okay with that. The transfer from Line 3 to Line 2 is a few metres.

I've made the transfer from SRT to Line 2 for months, and never would I propose spending $3.5 Billion dollars to eliminate it. The transfer isn't that bad and the money could be better used elsewhere.

Your opinion is not common, and the majority of current users will prefer the subway project to go ahead.

 

[Rainforest]

How limited is the capacity?

Stouffville RER (SmartTrack) will run once in 15 min according to John Tory, if he has his way (even that frequency requires some nontrivial enhancements). Lakeshore East, probably can reach same level. Better service will require a downtown tunnel.

A trains every 15 min means 4 trains per hour. Not sure about the size of each train. Single-level GO trains can carry 2,000 passengers. But if they use smaller trains that are easier to handle, it could be just 1,000 or 1,500 per train. TTC's subway trains are about 1,000 per train.

So, each line (Stouffville and Lakeshore) will likely have top capacity of 4,000 to 6,000 per hour. Obviously, not all of that capacity will compete with Scarborough subway extension. Some will be used by Markham, some by Durham region cities, some by the residents of western and southern Scarborough that would never be on the Kennedy - STC subway in any case. Some will be taken by residents of eastern Toronto.

At the end, it is possible that the Stouffville line will divert no more than 1,000 to 1,500 riders per hour off the Scarborough subway. Lakeshore East, probably even less since it runs further from the catchment area.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If you don't like the conclusion, it does not make my argument absurd.

How is your argument not absurd. You appear to claim that subway stations not in walking distance of each other is unacceptable. My rebuttal was that we frequently build stations far beyond walking distance, meaning that it is fully acceptable.

Old part of the subway network has much closer stop spacing. I am not even talking about downtown (south of Bloor). Look at Yonge between Bloor and Eglinton, it is 800 m average. BD subway between Jane and Main follows a 700 - 800 m spacing pattern. Many of those stations have lower usage than the proposed Eglinton & Danforth station.

Yeah, those stations also didn't cost $150 Million to $200 Million to build. Back then those stations were stupid cheap. Nowadays they're so expensive that we have to be really conservative about where we place them.

There is no good reason not to add that station.

Yeah, except for the $150 Million cost and the fact that there are two other rapid transit stations on Eglinton in the immediate area.

 

[Hopkins123]

There's a stronger case for extending the Eglinton-Crosstown grade-separated to Kingston Road, allowing for a St George-style subway interchange at Brimley-Danforth, than there is unnecessarily allowing all buses from the east to feed into Kennedy Station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Stouffville RER (SmartTrack) will run once in 15 min according to John Tory, if he has his way (even that frequency requires some nontrivial enhancements). Lakeshore East, probably can reach same level. Better service will require a downtown tunnel.

It's 15 minutes or more frequent.

A trains every 15 min means 4 trains per hour.

No it doesn't. It means at least 4 trains per hour.

So, each line (Stouffville and Lakeshore) will likely have top capacity of 4,000 to 6,000 per hour.

No it won't.

Based on your numbers, each train holds at least 1,000 people. Let's say that one train comes every 5 minutes, you get a capacity of 12,000 persons on each line (24,000 in total).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

At the end, it is possible that the Stouffville line will divert no more than 1,000 to 1,500 riders per hour off the Scarborough subway. Lakeshore East, probably even less since it runs further from the catchment area.

By the way, considering that the TTC expects that 15 years from now this extension will move only 9,500 pphpd, and that the TTC's transit technology table (Page 12) only recommends subway construction after 10,000 pphpd, the loss of even 1,500 riders is very significant. That ridership is almost as low as Sheppard. If RER has any greater impact, usage on this extension will almost certainly be less than the Sheppard Subway.

 

[Rainforest]

How is your argument not absurd. You appear to claim that subway stations not in walking distance of each other is unacceptable. My rebuttal was that we frequently build stations far beyond walking distance, meaning that it is fully acceptable.

Acceptable is a relative term. We can live with very wide-spaced stations, but it is not a good idea given that this particular station is going to be well used.

Yeah, those stations also didn't cost $150 Million to $200 Million to build. Back then those stations were stupid cheap. Nowadays they're so expensive that we have to be really conservative about where we place them.

Yeah, except for the $150 Million cost and the fact that there are two other rapid transit stations on Eglinton in the immediate area.

All transit construction, be it subway, LRT, streetcar, or even a new bus garage, is more expensive these days than it was 50 years ago. Doesn't mean we should stop transit construction. That station is not a huge extra cost, compared to the total cost of the project.

 

[Rainforest]

Based on your numbers, each train holds at least 1,000 people. Let's say that one train comes every 5 minutes, you get a capacity of 12,000 persons on each line (24,000 in total).

"Every 5 minutes" is your number, not mine. Not sure where you got it, and how you hope to squeeze so many trains through the existing Union rail corridor.

5 min on each line means both combined would run on a 2.5 min frequency. And, you need some room for VIA trains coming from the east.

As I said, 15 min on each line is the practical limit with the existing arrangement. Higher frequency is possible (with a downtown rail tunnel and a number of other improvements), but will not happen any time soon.