Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[ehlow]

Well I never said it made more sense to built Danforth, I said that if this Councillor wants a station on Danforth, one of the other stations has to go if the project is to stay within budget. If one of the stations has to go, Lawrence makes the most sense. But would I kill Lawrence to build Danforth? No

I don't think that scenario would happen. They'll likely either add Eg-Danforth station to the other 3 or not. They won't remove another one to build the Eg-Danforth station.

 

[salsa]

An Eglinton-Danforth station could make sense. The station could a have a bus bay, which buses from the east would use instead of Kennedy station. There is some density north along Danforth, and some redevelop potential in the plazas around there.

Kennedy station will connect with the crosstown and RER Stouffville line. I don't see the logic of removing buses from this major mobility hub by terminating them at a new station just down the road (and at a cost of $200 million). The "some density" that you describe would be better served by the Scarborough-Malvern LRT from the Transit City plan, which would replace most of those buses in the first place.

A station dropped before because otherwise "$500 million more than SRT" couldn't hold water.

That number proved to be horse shit long time ago. The city is sinking almost a billion dollars into this vanity project, even without this extra station.

 

[ehlow]

Kennedy station will connect with the crosstown and RER Stouffville line. I don't see the logic of removing buses from this major mobility hub by terminating them at a new station just down the road (and at a cost of $200 million). The "some density" that you describe would be better served by the Scarborough-Malvern LRT from the Transit City plan, which would replace most of those buses in the first place.

Good point. I agree, may as well have buses continue to go to Kennedy station, this station probably isn't necessary.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Kennedy station will connect with the crosstown and RER Stouffville line. I don't see the logic of removing buses from this major mobility hub by terminating them at a new station just down the road (and at a cost of $200 million). The "some density" that you describe would be better served by the Scarborough-Malvern LRT from the Transit City plan, which would replace most of those buses in the first place.

LRT is evil. War on cars. Blah blah blah.

 

[Rainforest]

Councillor De Baeremaeker wants to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build an Eglinton-Danforth Station on Line 2:

But you are not against the underground Oakwood station on Eglinton LRT, are you?

Both stations will have similar costs, and the Eglinton-Danforth station will likely have higher usage.

$200 million is not a very large amount on the scale of this project, and the station will be well placed both for walk-in and transfer users. It will beat many existing stations on the rider counts; for example Castle Frank, Old Mill, Summerhill, Dupont, Bessarion.

 

[Rainforest]

Kennedy station will connect with the crosstown and RER Stouffville line. I don't see the logic of removing buses from this major mobility hub by terminating them at a new station just down the road (and at a cost of $200 million). The "some density" that you describe would be better served by the Scarborough-Malvern LRT from the Transit City plan, which would replace most of those buses in the first place.

IMO, Eglinton buses (34, 86, 116) should continue running to Kennedy even if a new subway station is added at Eglinton and Danforth. However, Brimley North and South buses can be combined into one route, that connects to the new station and no longer runs to Kennedy. The 16 McCowan - Danforth bus does that already. This will be consistent with the TTC's most common grid service pattern.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But you are not against the underground Oakwood station on Eglinton LRT, are you?

Both stations will have similar costs, and the Eglinton-Danforth station will likely have higher usage.

$200 million is not a very large amount on the scale of this project, and the station will be well placed both for walk-in and transfer users. It will beat many existing stations on the rider counts; for example Castle Frank, Old Mill, Summerhill, Dupont, Bessarion.

My problem is that this entire line is absurdly expensive for the improvements it provides. I'm not interested in spending more money than necessary.

As for Oakwood, that station is awfully close to Allen Station, though removing it would create a 1.2 km gap between Dufferin and Allen. If the ECLRT is at risk at going over budget, Oakwood would be one of the first stations I'd look at eliminating.

 

[superman]

My problem is that this entire line is absurdly expensive for the improvements it provides. I'm not interested in spending more money than necessary.

As for Oakwood, that station is awfully close to Allen Station, though removing it would create a 1.2 km gap between Dufferin and Allen. If the ECLRT is at risk at going over budget, Oakwood would be one of the first stations I'd look at eliminating.

I think this has been brought up before, but whats the cost differential between:
- elevating the Eglinton line between Laird and Kennedy + building the SLRT, vs
- Scarborough subway extension

 

[georgevicbell]

How much would adding a station effect whatever work has been done so far? Specifically with regards to rewriting and re-opening the Transit City agreement to include this (or move it to a seperate agreement I guess...) it's already taken them almost a year and they haven't come back with something for the province or city to agree to...so would this push that date out?

Does the TTC have a drop-dead date for when the SRT will be unsafe, or unusable?

I love the idea of re-opening council debate on this...it will require 66% though I think because it's within a year of the last debate or something right?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think this has been brought up before, but whats the cost differential between:
- elevating the Eglinton line between Laird and Kennedy + building the SLRT, vs
- Scarborough subway extension

A rough analysis:
According to Neptis, elevated LRT costs approximately $175 Million/km. The distance that would need to be elevated (Laird to Kennedy) is 8.5 km.

Elevated (Laird to Kennedy): 175 M * 8.5 km = $1,487.5 Million

The at grade portion of ECLRT is $55m/km. Since this structure will no longer be built, we need to subtract it from the total.
$1,487.5 M - ($55 M * 8.5 km) = $1,020 M

Finally, add the $1,800 M price of the SLRT.
$1,020 M + $1,800M = $2,820

The additional costs to elevate the ECLRT from Laird to Kennedy is approximately $2.82 Billion

The additional costs to build the Scarborough Subway is $3.52 Billion, $700 Million more than the Eglinton elevation option.

Of all the comparable alternatives that I've seen, including RER and SLRT + ECLRT elevation, the Subway has always come out as the most expensive option, at best providing an insignificant improvement in travel times, and at worst being slower than the more economical alternatives.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How much would adding a station effect whatever work has been done so far? Specifically with regards to rewriting and re-opening the Transit City agreement to include this (or move it to a seperate agreement I guess...)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but I think it's important to point out that that the legal agreement between Toronto and Ontario is to build the Scarborough LRT, not a subway extension. As of now, the province is obligated to build the LRT. Of course its clear that City Hall and Queens Park have different goals.

I think this agreement will be changed to require the TTC and Province to build the subway, once we've figured out the final cost of this project.

 

[salsa]

Councillor De Baeremaeker wants to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build an Eglinton-Danforth Station on Line 2:

The Star now has an article as well. Look at this blithering idiot:

Without the extra stop, he said, there would be a four-kilometre gap between Kennedy Station and the next stop. With the extra stop, the gap would be two kilometres — still far bigger, he said pointedly, than gaps between stations downtown.

“We’ve been paying our fair share of taxes for decades without receiving our fair share of the transit pie. So I think it is our turn. We have been last in line,” he said.

Asked why he did not suggest a fourth station during the lengthy pre-vote debate, De Baeremaeker said he was “too busy” trying to convince unsympathetic non-Scarborough councillors to support a subway “to get into the finer details of which alignment and which station.”

“I’m listening to the criticisms of people like Councillor (Josh) Matlow and mayoral candidate Olivia Chow,” De Baeremaeker said, “who said, ‘You don’t have enough stops. More stops are better. The subway only has three stops.’

“Well, you know what? I listen to my opponents, and I thought, their criticism of the Scarborough subway proposal is that it doesn’t have as many stops. Well, you know what? That’s a valid criticism. It only has three stops, not seven stops. Seven stops might be too many, but certainly a fourth stop, to me, makes a lot of sense.”

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

The Star now has an article as well. Look at this blithering idiot:

It's interesting that we listen to him at all. That's Ford's legacy more than anything else, but really I blame Stintz. If she hadn't let her ambition blind her, we would be building the LRT already. The thing is that, despite his rhetoric, he's right about this. If you're going to build this stupid subway, at least make it less stupid.

I'm starting to take a PanAm games attitude to this stupid subway. If we're going to have a games, let's at least have a fun games. If we're going to build a subway, at least build a decent subway.

Aside: can we stop with the ridiculousness about elevating the LRT? It's not going to happen, and the absolutely only reason to even think about doing it would be to pander to the dimbulbs that have had this 'bright idea' 10 years after everyone else.

 

[BurlOak]

I think this has been brought up before, but whats the cost differential between:
- elevating the Eglinton line between Laird and Kennedy + building the SLRT, vs
- Scarborough subway extension

I have used the following marginal costs.

$ 40 M = Brentcliffe to Don Mills Portal south alignment ($20M realign already started TBM launch, $20M Leslie Station
$ 0 M = 500m on either side of Don Mills underground
$ 480 M = Don Mills to Kennedy (6km x $80M/km) ($140M elevated - $60M on street)
$2,000M = SRT/LRT
$2,520M = Total

I am not sure what the Scarborough Subway estimate is now, but I think it is in the $3.5B to $4B range.

There is also a lot more uncertainty with the Scarborough Subway option since no investigations have been done on 100% of the line, while the conditions for most the ECLRT/SRT plan are known.

Not that far off TheTigerMaster's estimate.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Of all the imcumbents, De Baeremaeker was on top of the list of councillors I wanted gone. He's easily the worst councillor. The guy has no integrity and has no problem saddling the City with debt just because he got spooked by Rob Ford. Such a scumbag.