All aboard for more subways

[CN Tower]

Yes, but they'll have to retrofit those tunnels in the future to accomodate high-floor subway cars and take out the catenaries and prolengthen the platform areas. And to expand out heavy-rail subway service from that central tunneled section they'll need to construct brand new ROW from scratch. This would be less of a problem if the TTC were going to utilize the Richview Expressway lands and an elevated guideway through part of the Golden Mile, but their insistance on keeping operations road median with at-level intersection crossings means ripping up all that expensive infrastructure at a later date to expand the subway. Ripping up Eglinton twice instead of building for the future the one time.

Can someone please translate this into plain english for me? What I want to know is:

1. whether there is going to be a below ground train along eglinton and if so where does it start and finish
and
2. when will it start and finish construction?

In my opinion this is absolutely integral to Toronto's growth and success and our #1 priority.

Thanks guys!

 

[kEiThZ]

But why? It seems pretty clear that subways to to a degree reduce street life, and this counters her basic premise.

Might want to let Paris, London and New York know that subways are damaging to street life.

Or if you want a city about our size, why not discuss Vienna or Munich? They have a healthy mix of subways and trams. Kinda like what we do in the core right now. But I seriously doubt either one of those cities would service major urban nodes (like our STC) solely with LRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

Jane Jacobs was a big supporter of Toronto's streetcar system - the Jane Jacobs award in 2005 went to Steve Munro for his part in saving Toronto's streetcars.

The award for his work in saving the streetcar network in the core. In no way, shape or form was it an endorsement of Transit City.

 

[M II A II R II K]

That's your opinion. My opinion(and conincidently most credible transit planners), is that Sheppard is not a success, but rather an expensive mistake. I am not going to deny 50,000 riders isn't a lot, but that translates to around 5,000pph? Far below the minimunm threshold of a subway. If the subway was such a success, it should be attracting more riders, even in it's truncated state. The intermediate stations are barely used, especially Leslie, considering the hospital nearby. If the Sheppard was built as LRT from the beginning, I doubt we would be even having this conversation.
Because Toronto is getting a line right across Toronto for that many millions. Good bang for the buck.

Perhaps if it were extended west to VCC and east further than STC and head up north to Markham the Sheppard Line could connect 4 satellite downtowns and gain enough riders. If not then at convert the Sheppard Subway into LRT so at least it would be a complete LRT route.

 

[M II A II R II K]

IS there anything other then the RT and DLR which is crutial to be SUBWAY??????

Eglinton Line from Keele to Kennedy could work, and if the DRL went to Pearson then the Eglinton Line could go to Pearson as well. And the DRL on the East side can act as an Eastern equivalent of the Spadina Line especially if it terminated in Markham.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Slightly OT but it seems to me that many people who worship the altar of Jane Jacobs take her comment "eyes on the street" and extrapolate that to mean that she was pro LRT (or specifically anti subway/subterrainian transport). However by that logic the PATH system would be against Jacobsian ideals as well, no? My point is that things like this (transportation mode) do not define how active the street life is in a particular area. As some have pointed out New York, Paris, and London seem to get by just fine with a large underground transportation network. King and Queen are no more vibrant than Yonge just because they have streetcars.

Furthermore the idea that high rise development also removes the "eyes on the street" and makes neighborhoods less "safe". Again Parliment is no more safer than Yonge-Eglinton just because it's full of low rise buildings.

 

[GenerationW]

Wow, I cannot believe members are falling for that populist drivel. Chris Sellors is running for council in Ward 22 St. Paul's. The Yonge subway runs through the ward, as with the St. Clair Streetcar, and the potential ECLRT. Why would he be proposing subways to voters in a ward that is has good transit already,yet most of the resident hop in their BMV's to shop at the Forest Hill Loblaws?

Oh wait...Subways do not rob us of road capacity before people are able to leave their cars at home. He IS pandering to the voters in Ward 22! Build subways, and get transit out of the way of cars!!

I have to admit, I am liking the pro-subway crowd. The more they talk, the less credible they sound. Chris Sellors only wants subways because he care less about transit. It's about making sure cars do not have to share the road with transit. Build a few kms of subway that will do nothing to relieve congestion, and totally stifle any sort of additional transit due to the high cost, and build more roads instead. VOTE FOR CHRIS SELLORS!

If he's running in a ward that already has a subway, and that will almost certainly (sooner or later) get something on Eglinton underground in his ward, how is he pandering to the voters in his ward?

And since when is populism (if supporting subways qualifies as such) necessarily a bad thing? Though I don't understand how it can even be called populism if he is, as you say, preaching to the hoi polloi of Forest Hill, horrible people that they are.

And are you saying subways don't relieve congestion, but LRTs do?

 

[SimonP]

Might want to let Paris, London and New York know that subways are damaging to street life.

That is exactly the sort of thing I complained about. We always compare Toronto to those much larger cities that are based around subways. This ignores that most successful cities in Toronto's size range are tram based.

Or if you want a city about our size, why not discuss Vienna or Munich? They have a healthy mix of subways and trams. Kinda like what we do in the core right now. But I seriously doubt either one of those cities would service major urban nodes (like our STC) solely with LRT.

Sure they do. A Vienna equivalent of STC would be Donaustadt, and it has long been only served by a streetcar.

 

[SimonP]

Slightly OT but it seems to me that many people who worship the altar of Jane Jacobs take her comment "eyes on the street" and extrapolate that to mean that she was pro LRT (or specifically anti subway/subterrainian transport). However by that logic the PATH system would be against Jacobsian ideals as well, no?

Jane Jacobs and the Toronto reform movement were opposed to the PATH system. From Wikipedia:

"The city originally helped fund the construction, but with the election of a reform city council this ended. The reformers disliked the underground system. Their opposition was based on the Jane Jacobs notion that an active street life was important to keeping cities and neighbourhoods vital and that consumers should be encouraged to shop on street level stores rather than in malls"

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Jane Jacobs and the Toronto reform movement were opposed to the PATH system. From Wikipedia:

"The city originally helped fund the construction, but with the election of a reform city council this ended. The reformers disliked the underground system. Their opposition was based on the Jane Jacobs notion that an active street life was important to keeping cities and neighbourhoods vital and that consumers should be encouraged to shop on street level stores rather than in malls"

And I'd like to see Toronto try to get rid of the PATH system, it's well used and people are gratefull that it's there.

 

[kettal]

Can someone please translate this into plain english for me? What I want to know is:

1. whether there is going to be a below ground train along eglinton and if so where does it start and finish
and
2. when will it start and finish construction?

In my opinion this is absolutely integral to Toronto's growth and success and our #1 priority.

Thanks guys!

In the Transit City plan for Eglinton, there will be an underground train from approx Keele Street to Leslie Street; it will then continue at surface from airport to Kennedy Station.

The first central portion was planned to be operational in 2016

 

[Justin10000]

I do not think anyone is saying to get rid of the PATH. Just the system does not fall into the idea of a active street life.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I do not think anyone is saying to get rid of the PATH. Just the system does not fall into the idea of a active street life.

Thanks for missing the point.

The discussion was that Jacobs would/was a supporter of LRT's because by their nature they are above ground and added to the street vibrancy and as I said "eyes on the street", and that subways ran counter to this becuase it moved people underground and away from the street. My point was that this is an example of people misappropriating Jacobs ideas (now I know she actually was a supporter of LRT/streetcars in her fight against the highway) to mould to your ideals. A prior poster had mentioned how LRT creates a stretch of mid rise development while subways (at least in the Toronto suburband experience) creates node of high density filled in by lower density with the implication that this result was bad. Again a node such as Yonge-Eglinton is no less dangerous than Parliment for example simply because one is a dense node with subway service while the other is low to mid rise with surface transit. Simply put the mode of transport does not dictate how vibrant or safe a neighborhood is or will be.

 

[ssiguy2]

This "subway only produces nodes and highrises" argument is total crap. The nodes at, for example, Yonge & Sheppard hve NOTHING to do with the subway and EVERYTHING to do with the city planning dept. The city could have choose to limit the growth to mid rise but choose not to, note the word choose.
Its true many large cities are creating LRT lines but these cities already have huge subway systems to begin with. I also can't image Shep/Kingston/Finch/DM ever becoming the bohemian blvd Miller has wet dreams over. I just can never see the day when these Walmart, gas station, strip mall, auto dealer, fast food restaurants ever becoming anytihng but what they are, commercial roads. All cities around the world in all countries have these sort of roadways because they are essential. They are also part of the urban fabric. Something tells me that the citizens of Barcelona don't gas their cars along the Rambas.
In 1975 metro had 2.6 million and that has soared to 5.8 and by 2031 will hit 9.7 but its subway/mass transit system have hardly budged in the last 30 years. Toronto has to snap out of it and follow what every other city on the planet does and only use tunnels when absolutely necessary and is the exception not the rule. Rail ROW, trench, elevation are Toronto's only option but are not second class but the rule on the rest of the planet. Using rail ROW, which Toronto has many, can be done by a "build now ask questions later" attitude. Vancouver's MLine started construction before the environmental reviews were done. They knew that elevating down the middle road doesn't effect the enviornment. Same is basically true with rail ROW that already have trains using them daily. As for these people who will complaing about the noise {until their property values soar} tell them to go to hell. Just say if you didn't want the noise of trains maybe you shouldn't have moved their in the first place.
These lines could be built in no time at half the price of a tunnel In the suburbs the SMALLEST spacing of the station should be 1 km give or take. If you are going to be spending mass amounts of money then system should be exactly that. Unless right downtown or under small underground routes these mass/rapid transit systems should NEVER be more than $200 million per km..................never. No other place on the planet have suburban subways coming in at $310 million per km. It's an obscene waste of funds and heads should be rolling. If YorkU demands a underground then either tell them to go straight to hell or just tell them that they can pay the difference in costs. If it's good enough for Rosedale it's good enough for the tender ears at York and I bet if you asked the student they couldn't care less as long as it get's built.
Vancouver is going to begin it's 11km new SkyTrain line to be completed by 2014 for $1.4 billion which includes one km of underground and 80 metre station expandable to 110 metres when eventually needed, That will have 36,000 ppdph and will use P3 and the contract and negotiations haven't even started. The province put a deadline and you would be amazed about how fast Translink and private developers can get their ass in gear when money is on the table.

 

[SimonP]

Thanks for missing the point.

The discussion was that Jacobs would/was a supporter of LRT's because by their nature they are above ground and added to the street vibrancy and as I said "eyes on the street", and that subways ran counter to this because it moved people underground and away from the street. My point was that this is an example of people misappropriating Jacobs ideas (now I know she actually was a supporter of LRT/streetcars in her fight against the highway) to mould to your ideals.

How does it miss the point? Jane Jacobs supported people on the street, she opposed things that took people off the street (like the PATH and Eaton Centre). I don't think she ever argued against subways, (she says nothing for or against them in Death and Life, but I do think it is a reasonable extrapolation from her philosophy.