All aboard for more subways

[gweed123]

Streetcars have more capacity than buses. Transit City cars will have WAY more capacity than buses. Bloor-Danforth was running two-car trains at the time they decided to move toward subway. A bus at capacity and a streetcar at capacity are different things.

Yet despite having a lower capacity, the Eglinton West bus route carries only 3100 fewer passengers per day than the Queen streetcar (and those are even ALRV). The ALRVs have roughly the same capacity as the two-car trains that were running on B-D prior to the subway being implemented. With all this talk about the DRL and how it needs to either replace or severely relieve the Queen streetcar, one would think the same thing would apply for the Eglinton bus route. During the morning period, the Eglinton West bus is running every 1'48", while the Queen streetcar is running every 3'08".

 

[gweed123]

What? It's in his signature. Surely the low blow here is a claim of making a low blow over this!

I don't consider it a low blow, I just find it funny that he called me out on it as a 'future planner' when everyone on this site at one point or another has criticized a planning professional in some capacity (criticizing designs, ridership projections, what have you). It just seems like he was trying to make me feel guilty for having an opinion and questioning the methodology of a fellow planner.

 

[Fresh Start]

What? It's in his signature. Surely the low blow here is a claim of making a low blow over this!

No, no, this is all apart of Matt's MO. He pulled the same straw man argumentative tactics with me. Pro-subway advocates are apparently not permitted to question what the elected officials are doing, because doing so apparently requires a burden of proof that pro-LRT advocates are unfettered from. The TTC hires the consultants, operates the routes, and publishes the reports i.e. they can claim or dispel whatever they want if it serves their agenda because there's no alternative source of information to go by. It's a closed market. Right now, that agenda is NO SUBWAYS, MORE STREETCARS. Therefore it is a low blow what Matt is doing by the mere insinuation that Andrew speaking against the City's agenda will hurt his future chances for employment by the City. People have kept mum against bad public policies for fear of discovery and ostracism over far less.

 

[GraphicMatt]

No, no, this is all apart of Matt's MO. He pulled the same straw man argumentative tactics with me. Pro-subway advocates are apparently not permitted to question what the elected officials are doing, because doing so apparently requires a burden of proof that pro-LRT advocates are unfettered from. The TTC hires the consultants, operates the routes, and publishes the reports i.e. they can claim or dispel whatever they want if it serves their agenda because there's no alternative source of information to go by. It's a closed market. Right now, that agenda is NO SUBWAYS, MORE STREETCARS. Therefore it is a low blow what Matt is doing by the mere insinuation that Andrew speaking against the City's agenda will hurt his future chances for employment by the City. People have kept mum against bad public policies for fear of discovery and ostracism over far less.

I have no issue at all with criticizing methodologies or conclusions, but I think essentially claiming that people have falsified numbers for their own purposes is insane. If the numbers are wrong, show that they're wrong - the TTC does make route data available - but claiming that people who have worked on these EAs and reports have been knowingly deceitful with their data is crossing a line, especially if someone is hoping to work in that field.

Andrew has since qualified his original statements and I understand better what he was saying. I don't have an issue any longer.

Lots of smart people worked on the Transit City plan. Lots of smart people still support the Transit City plan and hope to see it implemented. Then there are smart people who have issues with Transit City and would like to see significant changes to the plan. Then there's you - and some others, but mostly you - who have decided everyone who supports Transit City is stupid.

 

[Fresh Start]

I don't think you're stupid, just misguided in your advocacy.

 

[lead82]

This is definitely a hot topic and looks to be the main election issue for November.

Here is my take on things. All these mayoral candidates are clamouring for more subways need to answer this question:
When are these subways that you propose be in service?

Any new line requires a full EA, which is at least a 2 yr process, plus 3 years in design, plus 5-10 years of constuction.

Any candidate that is planning to scrap the TC lines means that this coming decade Toronto will see no significant transit improvements, except for the York U subway extension.

A little bit of rationality needs to come into play. I suggest that we improve TC by choosing subway technology for Eglinton and the DRL. The other lines, Finch and Sheppard can largely remain as LRT.

My main point is that proposing all these subway lines without solid funding means NOTHING WILL BE BUILT!

I will be voting for a candidate that has a solid plan to start building lines not for proposing lines we will never see built in our life times.

 

[gweed123]

This is definitely a hot topic and looks to be the main election issue for November.

Here is my take on things. All these mayoral candidates are clamouring for more subways need to answer this question:
When are these subways that you propose be in service?

Any new line requires a full EA, which is at least a 2 yr process, plus 3 years in design, plus 5-10 years of constuction.

Any candidate that is planning to scrap the TC lines means that this coming decade Toronto will see no significant transit improvements, except for the York U subway extension.

A little bit of rationality needs to come into play. I suggest that we improve TC by choosing subway technology for Eglinton and the DRL. The other lines, Finch and Sheppard can largely remain as LRT.

My main point is that proposing all these subway lines without solid funding means NOTHING WILL BE BUILT!

I will be voting for a candidate that has a solid plan to start building lines not for proposing lines we will never see built in our life times.

I think your timeline is right for some lines, but a lot of the lines, or some portions of them, already have the EAs complete. Sheppard and Eglinton West had EAs done in association with RTES, or a plan previous to that, so they would only need to be updated, not completely restarted from scratch. Theoretically, you could have construction beginning by the end of 1 mayoral term if the planning work begins within the first couple months of taking office. I believe the DRL East is already being studied, and had a preliminary EA done at some point.

The funding question is certainly a big one. Eglinton from Eglinton West to Pearson, B-D from Kennedy to STC, and DRL from Danforth to Spadina can be done for just over $7B, using industry standard projections, and a variety of different construction techniques. I think those 3 alone would appease most of Toronto for the immediate future. 1 line for the west, 1 line for the east, 1 line for the north, and 1 line for downtown. If the TTC managed to get shovels in the ground on at least half of those projects before the end of the next mayoral term, I think they would stand a good chance of being re-elected, at least on their transit-based accomplishments.

 

[kettal]

Wow, it looks like the only way that the LRT Lobby can try at winning arguments is to brandish their opponents as conspiracy theorists, no matter how valid their objections might be.

Tip: the reason you sound like a conspiracy theorist is because you accuse people of belonging to a lrt lobby, secret left wing clubs, etc.

 

[nfitz]

Tip: the reason you sound like a conspiracy theorist is because you accuse people of belonging to a lrt lobby, secret left wing clubs, etc.

Kettal, I think we agreed at the last meeting that we wouldn't discuss secret left wing clubs.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

When is the next secret left wing club meeting? Oops said too much!

 

[Electrify]

Not sure if this has been posted yet... but Eglinton is getting a subway. It just will use light rail trains instead of heavy rail trains.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Not sure if this has been posted yet... but Eglinton is getting a subway. It just will use light rail trains instead of heavy rail trains.

No it's not, it's getting an LRT. It just happens to operate in a tunnel. It's a subway only when the tunnel section is completely seperate from the surface sections. ie the trains run from Pearson to Black Creek (where the tunnel starts), Black Creek to Brentcliffe and Brentcliffe to Kennedy.

 

[Fresh Start]

Not sure if this has been posted yet... but Eglinton is getting a subway. It just will use light rail trains instead of heavy rail trains.

Yes, but they'll have to retrofit those tunnels in the future to accomodate high-floor subway cars and take out the catenaries and prolengthen the platform areas. And to expand out heavy-rail subway service from that central tunneled section they'll need to construct brand new ROW from scratch. This would be less of a problem if the TTC were going to utilize the Richview Expressway lands and an elevated guideway through part of the Golden Mile, but their insistance on keeping operations road median with at-level intersection crossings means ripping up all that expensive infrastructure at a later date to expand the subway. Ripping up Eglinton twice instead of building for the future the one time.

 

[LAz]

Road tolls, air rights, PPPs, etc, all are valid ways of generating money.

Petrol tax. Parking fees. Etc.
Emissions tax?

Not sure if this has been posted yet... but Eglinton is getting a subway. It just will use light rail trains instead of heavy rail trains.

That is why we should use correct terminology - METRO.

If we bother to dig such a long tunnel, then there is no reason why it should not be a metro from the start.

 

[Electrify]

No it's not, it's getting an LRT. It just happens to operate in a tunnel. It's a subway only when the tunnel section is completely seperate from the surface sections. ie the trains run from Pearson to Black Creek (where the tunnel starts), Black Creek to Brentcliffe and Brentcliffe to Kennedy.

LRT in a tunnel... just what do you think the term subway means? The 'sub' refers to 'subterrain'. It doesn't matter if it is light rail, heavy rail, or even pedestrians or cars using it.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...noid=kRgbxaimkhTtzEXxdbSaLQ&cbp=12,81.43,,0,5

This is why I am getting anal about people arguing subways over light rail. It is arguing between moide and operation!