News   Jul 26, 2024
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All aboard for more subways

Guys,
Transit City just dies right there.....

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/805299--new-transit-city-slower-shorter?bn=1



A revised Metrolinx plan shows Toronto’s four provincially funded Transit City lines have been cut by 22.5 kilometers and about 25 stops since they were originally announced.

Metrolinx CEO Rob Prichard says the city and TTC agreed to reduce the scope of the projects when detailed estimates made it clear the original plan would cost about $700 million more than the $8.15 billion the province agreed to provide for Transit City — before the provincial budget announced in March deferred $4 billion from its first five years of funding for the project.

Construction has been delayed from two to five years on the Scarborough RT, Finch and Eglinton lines and they would not be completed until as late as 2022 — six years later.

“We worked on the phasing with the city and the TTC throughout the fall and reached a consensus by the end of February,” said Prichard. “These are difficult choices because we would all like to complete all the projects and all their phases as quickly as possible. However the original budget of $8.15 billion is a firm limit that we and the city must work within.”

But Mayor David Miller says the city doesn’t support the plan. In a letter to Premier Dalton McGuinty, copied to city councillors Wednesday, Miller says the city’s most vulnerable neighbourhoods will be affected by the delays and reductions.

“The first five years of cash flow proposed by Metrolinx is inadequate to ensure completion in the 10-year timeframe. This will result in partial lines, inadequate service, and will cost more overall due to significant additional cost to purchase buses and associated infrastructure to fill the gap created by the reduced plan,” wrote Miller.

The mayor’s spokesperson, Stuart Green, said Wednesday night that the city would never have agreed to the revised Metrolinx plan that was attached to Miller’s letter. “We would never support that,” he said.
Since the provincial budget cut funding, only the timelines on the projects have changed, Prichard said. Sheppard, for which the ground has already been broken, is scheduled to open in 2014, only months later than originally suggested, and will be cut back by only one kilometer and one stop under the new plan.

Other lines don’t fare as well, especially the Eglinton Crosstown route, the initial phase of which will be 13 km shorter and up to six years later.

Miller’s letter asks the premier to reconsider a proposal that Toronto take on the financing of the first five years of Transit City, with the agreement that the province will repay the money later. But Prichard has said that doesn’t help reduce the provincial debt-load.

Prichard said that as Metrolinx introduces its Investment Strategy in 2013, the lines can continue to be phased in.

He said he’s confident the city and the agency will have a plan to put before the Metrolinx board on May 19.


tc-cut.jpeg




Anyone willing to defend that thing over subways???
 
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Im not very knowledgable on transit issues in detail, but the money that the province is willing to spend through metrolinx (4 billion?) only for transit city LRT? If we want to do subways, is the metrolinx money no longer avail?
 
Im not very knowledgable on transit issues in detail, but the money that the province is willing to spend through metrolinx (4 billion?) only for transit city LRT? If we want to do subways, is the metrolinx money no longer avail?

It's not certain, since the EA and the design work for the subway has to be completed before the money can be used for construction. It would definitely take maybe 3 years for the process to be completed. The province might decide to postpone or cancel funding for the line in that time. This is one of the reasons the Mayoral candidates are proposing alternative methods of funding their plans. Relying on the Province for money has proven to be wrong, more times than one.
 
It's not certain, since the EA and the design work for the subway has to be completed before the money can be used for construction. It would definitely take maybe 3 years for the process to be completed. The province might decide to postpone or cancel funding for the line in that time. This is one of the reasons the Mayoral candidates are proposing alternative methods of funding their plans. Relying on the Province for money has proven to be wrong, more times than one.

the EA for sheppard was completed...I think...

that would be the fastest line to be completed, they could just go ahead and dig
 
Anyone willing to defend that thing over subways???
Only a fool wouldn't defend it over subways! They killed 22.5 km of LRT to save $700-million? Do the math ... that's $30-million per kilometre (... though there must be something wrong with the math!)

What's killing the Transit City budget is the cost of the subway section under Eglinton. Surely the extreme expense of subway is the problem. Only a fool would use the extreme expense of subway to justify more subway on these routes; rather than only putting it where it is really necessary (Yonge, DRL - and that middle section of Eglinton).
 
Damn that is a big blow to tramsit city. It delights me. Makes my night. Er no, my day. Heck scratch that, it makes my week! :D



It would be nice if they just opted to make a metro from jane to laird or a stop past laird. If they bother to tunnel so much there really is no reason why not.
 
I support metro expansion. More importantly I support car disincentives, something nobody dare mention.

So how you came to the conclusion that I am anti-transit I do not know.

Tramsit city is a bad deal, period. It would be fine if the subway network was already in place. But, it's not in place.






How can you agree that a 13 km tunnel should be a tram tunnel? If you bother to incur so much costs on digging, why the hell should it not be a metro from the get go? That is what I mostly despise about transit city.


edit: I see how it is. It's the low scum bag approach of "you're either with me or against me". Don't worry, the Save Our Subways guys are not happy with me either, because I do not agree 100% with them. Heck, I still don't know if they are gonna kick me out of their group. The bottom line is that the same narrow logic is being used - "if you are not with us 100% then you are opposed to us". Well, not quite. Simply put, transit city is a failure on so many aspects, whereas widescale metro expansion is a better deal. Hence I put my weight behind the SOS group and other such initiatives. It is my obligation as a canadian citizen to oppose this stupidity that is attempted to be rammed down our throats. Alternatives are not being looked at, and that sickens me. So, Mr Stalin, I am not with you, but that does not mean that I oppose transit. I oppose the kind of vision that you have, the transit city fiasco. I support most of the SOS plan, not all, but most. So, get lost you troll.

edit2: Mon, why are you against transit? The way that I see it is that supporting transit city = being against transit.
 
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Guys,
Transit City just dies right there.....

tc-cut.jpeg


Anyone willing to defend that thing over subways???

Transit City has just lost all credibility, and it didn't have that much to begin with. So by the year 2022 you mean to tell me that we won't even have a light-rail tram to the airport? Yet LRT to Conlins Rd is a top priority? What a crock of shit.

I've been warning the LRT advocates for several months now but they refuse to listen... THE SILENT MAJORITY WANT SUBWAYS, THEY ALWAYS HAVE! Incremental subway expansion is better than this proposal; 100 years from now the subway will still be viable. When population growth outpaces the capacity of LRT, what the hell is the city going to be capable of doing then (by 2050 or sooner), when it can barely afford transit expansion now?
 
This could be percieved as good news or bad news. Good news to all that oppose the one size fits all Transit City system. But it's more of a bad news since the Province just told Toronto "We don't care about your transit needs"

I think the bad news out weighs the good news. If the province doesn't want to fund a complete LRT network (badly planned as it may), how would it ever fund a subway network that costs 2 or 3 times that. I think it's high time Toronto looks at other ways to fund transit.

Btw, it's hard to believe a 22.5 km cut only brings $700 million savings.
 
I just noticed, the Eglinton LRT has an increase of 1 underground stop from the previous plan to the new plan. Does this mean the tunnel extends up until Jane in the new plan? Maybe Metrolinx wants to make the underground LRT a subway!! This is good news!!
 
I support metro expansion. More importantly I support car disincentives, something nobody dare mention.

So how you came to the conclusion that I am anti-transit I do not know.

Tramsit city is a bad deal, period. It would be fine if the subway network was already in place. But, it's not in place.

Calling pro-subway advocates anti-transit is on the same level as calling Americans opposed to the War on Terror/Gulf War II unpatriotic closet jihadists.

I do agree with you that it is a victory for democracy what is going on right now. The people have always wanted subway expansion no matter the cost. I consider the past five years a distraction from what we really should have been pursuing all along. Streetcars have their rightful place in the network (I'd support a Queen LRT tunnel compliementary to the DRL for instance, and likely Don Mills from OSC to Markham Town Centre) but not to the extreme the Transit City Plan insinuates in many areas where enhanced bus service could more than make due. Paris, London, Madrid, heck even Montreal are only pursuing LRT now to fill in the gaps in-between subway lines; not attempting to reinvent their transit networks based on them.

How can you agree that a 13 km tunnel should be a tram tunnel? If you bother to incur so much costs on digging, why the hell should it not be a metro from the get go? That is what I mostly despise about transit city.

I would support a subway from Wynford Drive to Mount Dennis and have BRT interface with both ends of the line. Many will say it enforces a transfer but with luck its heavy usage (I have no doubt in my mind it'd see more traffic than the Sheppard stubway) will encourage future gov'ts to continue the expansion further out in both directions.

edit: I see how it is. It's the low scum bag approach of "you're either with me or against me". Don't worry, the Save Our Subways guys are not happy with me either, because I do not agree 100% with them. Heck, I still don't know if they are gonna kick me out of their group. The bottom line is that the same narrow logic is being used - "if you are not with us 100% then you are opposed to us". Well, not quite. Simply put, transit city is a failure on so many aspects, whereas widescale metro expansion is a better deal.

Hey SOS is not looking for sycophants, we don't try to label people into a box, so you're more than welcome to disagree with the consensus on some points, so long as your intentions are pure and you take the time to consider carefully the feedback you are being given before you post.
 
My point was just that by disagreeing on something, one does not get accused of something ridiculous.


That is what the LRT proponents do. heck, I like some of the components of the tramsit city plan. But, the most important thing is that the key of it - the eglinton fiasco - is not gonna go through.
It's worth gutting the whole thing, as long as they do not tram up eglinton instead of making it a metro from day one.
 
How can you agree that a 13 km tunnel should be a tram tunnel?

Eglinton LRT: Overhead power
Eglinton Subway: Third-rail power

Eglinton LRT: Low-floor
Eglinton Subway: High floor

Eglinton LRT: 33 km/h (tunnel)
Eglinton Subway: 33 km/h (tunnel)

Eglinton LRT: No transfer where tunnel ends
Eglinton Subway: Transfer where tunnel ends

Eglinton LRT: No wye to connect to Spadina line
Eglinton Subway: Wye to connect to Spadina line

Eglinton LRT: Arbitrary train length
Eglinton Subway: Arbitrary train length

Eglinton LRT: Flexity rolling stock by Bombardier
Eglinton Subway: Toronto Rocket rolling stock by Bombardier

What precisely makes you object to making it a tram tunnel? I suppose low floor cars might be a bit shakier than high floor ones, but the trams I rode in Frankfurt and Berlin weren't particularly shaky.

Frankly, I'm ok either way.
 

The article isn't clear on the source of this info... The caption under it says "This graphic represents the city's view of the the Transit City plan"

The city's view? Does that mean it is something Miller intentionally leaked to stir up anger? What does it mean?

I don't think it reflects the reality of what's happening, but who knows?
 

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