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All aboard for more subways

Who's celebrating a cut in transit funding? I don't know anybody here that thinks this is a good thing.
Tell me what "Damn that is a big blow to tramsit city. It delights me. Makes my night. Er no, my day. Heck scratch that, it makes my week!" is if it isn't celebrating!

What evidence have you got that LRT on Eglinton between Jane and Laird will be slower than subway on Eglinton between Jane and Laird? The vehicles have similiar acceleration profiles; neither is as fast as ICTS which would provide a bit faster service.
 
But that is the point, getting that extra capacity will not cripple us because it does not cost that much more to have it as an actual metro instead of lrt.

We do not know if it will be 20 years. It might be as little as 10. One thing that people do not take into consideration often is how people go to mass transit when the price of petrol goes up. That there is the single thing that will put more people on to mass transit than any increase of services. In the US when petrol prices passed 4 dollars a gallon in some places, teh mass transit service started to pop. There was over-usage. On the commuter rail I could not get a seat sometimes. Usage was insane, because people felt that it was not worthwhile to drive their autos at such high petrol prices. Canada will face a similar thing. Granted that auto dependence is not that high, the fact remains that Canada is much more auto-dependent than europe. What happened all over the US will happen to Canada - and that will put more than enough usage onto the Eglinton heavy rail rapid transit corridor.

I'd rather not cripple myself over mis-planning for the future. Converting a LRT tunnel into a Metro tunnel is too expensive.


edit:
What evidence have you got that LRT on Eglinton between Jane and Laird will be slower than subway on Eglinton between Jane and Laird?

Speed is not the only factor.

Why are you so unhappy about having "more capacity"? It's a preventive thing. Kinda like taking out some insurance at a very low cost, a one-small-payment.
 
What evidence have you got that LRT on Eglinton between Jane and Laird will be slower than subway on Eglinton between Jane and Laird? The vehicles have similiar acceleration profiles; neither is as fast as ICTS which would provide a bit faster service.

The problem is this cherry-picking. Why are we only talking between Jane and Laird. Eglinton is plenty busy east of Don Mills. Why not talk about that portion?
 
The problem is this cherry-picking. Why are we only talking between Jane and Laird. Eglinton is plenty busy east of Don Mills. Why not talk about that portion?
Because there have not ever been any plans (beyond fan threads) of building any subway east of Don Mills Road. And given that the heavily used section near Yonge doesn't justify subway, you can imagine how low the ridership is east of Don Mills Road!
 
What do you really think will be the opinion of "the people" will be when you tell them property taxes are going way up, tolls will be $10 and also on major arterials, GST, PST and/or income taxes will be raised and various transfer taxes and fees imposed. You gotta find those billions of dollars a year somewhere and rooting out bureaucratic waste ain't gonna do it either. Maybe cut a few important government services and fundings for other programs.

Too many people who "want subway expansion no matter what the cost" seem to think that money from "the government" is just some bottomless well that can be tapped with no impact on them. That's not the way the world works.

Pragmatism.

You're acting as if all those taxes will not eventually be implemented in Toronto anyway, to pay for far less significant endeavours. Tolls and taxes can be used in a smart way to allow changes and to re-educate the masses to change their habits in favour of a more sustainable and environmentally friendly lifestyle.

Sarah Thomson, for instance, has estimated it would cost around $13 billion in total to build close to 60 kilometes of new metros- and that it could be paid for using a combination of provincial funds allocated from the existing $8 billion Transit City fund, and a new road toll. That's not looking towards government as a sole source of funding; that's Toronto taking advantage of the resources it has at its disposal and putting the revenue generated to good use. Say what you want about Ford, Thomson and Rossi but at least they're coming up with good ideas, perhaps not sustainable ones, but at least not the status quo "do nothing" empty promises like other people running in this race are making. The people of Toronto and environs can't and won't have a better transport system until the degenerates that keep getting voted into office can manage with the budget set before them. Remember it is over $9 BILLION annually. The city council; thanks to McGuinty seems to think that they can call "oh-poor me" any they want and the public coffers will be opened to them willy-nilly. The voting public should realize that in order to affect any change they are going to have to vote these incompetents out.

Transit City is an awful idea that will severely harm Toronto if it goes ahead. If you don’t believe me, consider that the Spadina LRT is scheduled to be rebuilt next year - barely 15 years after going into service. So we're going to spend nearly $14 billion on the full Transit City Plan that will have to be rebuilt in about 15 years? Pragmatic indeed.
 
Tell me what "Damn that is a big blow to tramsit city. It delights me. Makes my night. Er no, my day. Heck scratch that, it makes my week!" is if it isn't celebrating!

If the Mayor and the TTC are hellbent on doing something that's widely unpopular and fiscally irresponsible with the entire Province's money, then at least this whole sorry exercise might allow for a better, far less divisive plan to emerge. Before now the silent majority could do nothing at all to stop it. Now at least there's a window of opportuntiy.

What evidence have you got that LRT on Eglinton between Jane and Laird will be slower than subway on Eglinton between Jane and Laird? The vehicles have similiar acceleration profiles; neither is as fast as ICTS which would provide a bit faster service.

Um, bunching and stalling on the surface ROW affecting headways through the tunnel?

Because there have not ever been any plans (beyond fan threads) of building any subway east of Don Mills Road. And given that the heavily used section near Yonge doesn't justify subway, you can imagine how low the ridership is east of Don Mills Road!

Kennedy Station was so obviously designed to interface with a future impending Eglinton Subway. It's odd too that planners wouldn't think to expand Eglinton eastwards given the opportunities for cheaper at- or above-grade right-of-way through the Golden Mile.
 
If the Mayor and the TTC are hellbent on doing something that's widely unpopular and fiscally irresponsible with the entire Province's money, then at least this whole sorry exercise might allow for a better, far less divisive plan to emerge. Before now the silent majority could do nothing at all to stop it. Now at least there's a window of opportuntiy.
What does that have to do with my question? I asked you to tell me how that isn't celebrating. You've claimed that no one here is celebrating the funding cut. I clearly demonstrated that someone here is celebrating, and you then dodge the question.

If you can't answer the simplest of questions without doing the slimy politician question dodge thing, how can we take anything you say seriously?

Um, bunching and stalling on the surface ROW affecting headways through the tunnel?
That seems pretty arrogant of you to simply assume that the service won't work as designed! What's the point of having discussion here, if you're simply going to conclude anything that has been proposed, that doesn't meet your very narrow idea of what should happen won't work!

Kennedy Station was so obviously designed to interface with a future impending Eglinton Subway.
What? Where do you get this stuff? Come on ... you're just making this up, right?
 
There is no forecast demand for higher capacity, even 20-years after opening. Why cripple yourself and create unnecessary transfers?

Because that's what a forward thinking city on the verge of becoming world class does. Why pay for a stronger Bloor viaduct when subway service is 50 years away? Why freeze development along the Richview corridor when it might only be used a generation later? Why rebuild streetcar tracks when it would be cheaper to convert to buses?

Even a short 10 years ago, who could have imagined the scale of the seemingly never ending condo boom? What sane economist would have predicted fuel costs to rise to $1.50/L? As uncertain as the future may be, all signs are pointing toward a denser, more transit friendly city. If we build the right type of infrastrcture today, we will generate a positive feedback loop between transit spending and transit demand. If you think it's expensive to build 50 km of subway today, imagine what the price will be 25 years from now when there is no choice.
 
What does that have to do with my question? I asked you to tell me how that isn't celebrating. You've claimed that no one here is celebrating the funding cut. I clearly demonstrated that someone here is celebrating, and you then dodge the question.

If you can't answer the simplest of questions without doing the slimy politician question dodge thing, how can we take anything you say seriously?

It's not my question to answer, it is LaZ's. Speaking on his behalf though I think what he meant with that remark was that putting an end to Transit City will see to the implementation of a superior plan. Bus, tram, subway, commuter-rail... the mode is not important, all that is is the speed and reliability of service. You're probably taking his statement to mean "cancel Transit City and to all transit funding in general," which we both know is untrue.

That seems pretty arrogant of you to simply assume that the service won't work as designed! What's the point of having discussion here, if you're simply going to conclude anything that has been proposed, that doesn't meet your very narrow idea of what should happen won't work!

And I phrased it as a question for you, which you have not answered. Though whatever time gains are achieved through the tunneled section can easily be lost on the surface where the trams will have to decelerate dramatically. More importantly, the Eglinton tunnel will not be built with the same specs for HRT as it will LRT. Mixing subway cars and streetcars raises many problems including the difference in floor height, and the greater dynamic clearance required for subway cars due to their length and width. For example, an ALRV streetcar is roughly the same length as a T1 subway car, but the ALRV pivots in the middle, and is narrower. LRT cars take their power from overhead wires that tend to require more clearance than a subway train. Making round tunnels wider also makes them taller.

This all correlates to a massive overall renovation when the time comes to upgrade the LRT tunnel to subway car standards, not to mention building an entirely new right-of-way for the subway in the areas beyond that central tunnel because side-of-roadway ROW is not being pursued under the Transit City Plan. Think about how expensive the proposals to convert the SRT ROW and Sheppard Subway ROW to light-rail are before spouting off nonsense

What? Where do you get this stuff? Come on ... you're just making this up, right?

You're right it has never been offically brought up, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in the distant future if we already have a terminal at Kennedy/Eglinton and would build a subway line as far east as Don Mills/Eglinton. It'd only be another 6 kilometres from there to connect the two points and provide Scarberians with a real alternative to the Bloor-Danforth for crosstown travel.

Members actually take Dentroba...errr Fresh Start seriously?

Do you ever have something meaningful to add to the discussion of Transport and Infrastructure or are you just one of those persons who shouts a disparaging comment at a performance or event, or interrupting a political meeting, with intent to disturb its performers or participants?
 
You're right it has never been offically brought up, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in the distant future if we already have a terminal at Kennedy/Eglinton and would build a subway line as far east as Don Mills/Eglinton. It'd only be another 6 kilometres from there to connect the two points and provide Scarberians with a real alternative to the Bloor-Danforth for crosstown travel.
50 years from now perhaps ... but won't the crosstown regional express train suffice?
 
No it won't, not unless it ran at 5 minute intervals all-day which I highly doubt freight companies would permit along the Midtown rail corridor. Finshing the subway to Kennedy Stn (or to Kingston Rd?) largely just be for the sake of completeness though as Eglinton east of the DVP could easily accomodate dedicated busways at a fraction of the cost for even 3 kms of Transit City light-rail. PIA to the DVP is the crucial part of the route.
 
Because that's what a forward thinking city on the verge of becoming world class does. Why pay for a stronger Bloor viaduct when subway service is 50 years away? Why freeze development along the Richview corridor when it might only be used a generation later? Why rebuild streetcar tracks when it would be cheaper to convert to buses?

Even a short 10 years ago, who could have imagined the scale of the seemingly never ending condo boom? What sane economist would have predicted fuel costs to rise to $1.50/L? As uncertain as the future may be, all signs are pointing toward a denser, more transit friendly city. If we build the right type of infrastrcture today, we will generate a positive feedback loop between transit spending and transit demand. If you think it's expensive to build 50 km of subway today, imagine what the price will be 25 years from now when there is no choice.

Well said Chuck, well said.
 

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