2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[TOareaFan]

The BD subway is fully funded from the province, feds, and the tax increase. SmartTrack is part of the existing GO Electrifciation and Regional Express in 10 years the province just promised and funded.

Is it? I recall when he first announced that I asked (not sure it was answered) if there was room in the corridor for all the new GO and SmartTrack....because while SmartTrack follows the KW corridor for a stretch it deviates at Mt. Dennis to go along Eglinton...right? So if there is frequent service on SmartTrack from Union to Mt. Dennis does it leave room in the corridor for the UPe + the GO RER services levels planned by Metrolinx and the HSR that the the government promised thru their former MoT?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As usual, David Soknacki is the only one making an ounce of sense.

 

[nfitz]

Is it? I recall when he first announced that I asked (not sure it was answered) if there was room in the corridor for all the new GO and SmartTrack....because while SmartTrack follows the KW corridor for a stretch it deviates at Mt. Dennis to go along Eglinton...right? So if there is frequent service on SmartTrack from Union to Mt. Dennis does it leave room in the corridor for the UPe + the GO RER services levels planned by Metrolinx and the HSR that the the government promised thru their former MoT?

As far as I can see, the only difference between what GO has already promised and Tory's "SmartTrack" is the through service at Union, and Tory is only promising 2 corridors, while GO has committed to 7 corridors.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The BD subway is fully funded from the province, feds, and the tax increase. SmartTrack is part of the existing GO Electrifciation and Regional Express in 10 years the province just promised and funded. There's still $2 billion sitting there fully funded for Finch and Eglinton, and Billions more promised for the DRL. Just what does John Tory suggest be done with the money from the province that's already sitting on the table?

John Tory wants to build "surface subways", and yet he still wants the BD subway extension that would run parallel to it, but not the DRL subway that this city needs most.

Tory has said he wants to run the BD extension parallel to the GO track? Not along Eglinton/McCowan?

So is the SRT. Chow can go back. I think on the smart track map it shows eglinton/mccowan, but the route for the Scarborough Subway is not set yet. The Glen Murray plan can still be built for 1.8 billion.

 

[TOareaFan]

As far as I can see, the only difference between what GO has already promised and Tory's "SmartTrack" is the through service at Union, and Tory is only promising 2 corridors, while GO has committed to 7 corridors.

Yes but, on that nw corridor is there room for what Metrolinx/GO are promising and SmartTrack or will ST come at the expense of, either, number of trains/frequency on the GO RER lines that share the corridor with ST/UPe/HSR.

 

[salsa]

Tory has said he wants to run the BD extension parallel to the GO track? Not along Eglinton/McCowan?

Do you understand what parallel means? The two lines are only 2 km apart and have the same stations, so how does it make any sense to have a redundant subway extension that will compete for the same riders?

 

[nfitz]

Do you understand what parallel means?

Apparently it means a 90 degree angle. One line heads in the same direction as Kennedy, and the other goes off 90° under Eglinton for 1.5 km.

The two lines are only 2 km apart and have the same stations

No, you can't have the same stations if your 2 km apart. That's over a mile! You'd have to build two different stations.

, so how does it make any sense to have a redundant subway extension that will compete for the same riders?

I doubt they'd be the same riders. Are the riders at existing Ellesmere station really going to head east to Scarborough Centre to catch subway? Will those at Lawrence East station head east to McCowan? I don't think so.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I doubt they'd be the same riders. Are the riders at existing Ellesmere station really going to head east to Scarborough Centre to catch subway? Will those at Lawrence East station head east to McCowan? I don't think so.

I don't know what to say if you think both the subway and smarttrack are needed. Look at the map. Salsa is right on this.

 

[nfitz]

I don't know what to say if you think both the subway and smarttrack are needed. Look at the map. Salsa is right on this.

The smarttack is just frequent service on the electrified Stouffville line. We still need more frequent service on the Stouffville line if they extend the Danforth subway a couple of stops. Whether you add a stop at Ellesmere and Lawrence East or not doesn't really change the plan.

We've already got commitments to build both, and there wasn't much objection based on duplication.

The big issue is that Tory is promising a lot less than the Liberal government has already committed to delivering.

 

[salsa]

Apparently it means a 90 degree angle. One line heads in the same direction as Kennedy, and the other goes off 90° under Eglinton for 1.5 km.

No, you can't have the same stations if your 2 km apart. That's over a mile! You'd have to build two different stations.

That 1.5 km jog along Eglinton is insignificant compared to the 6 km between Eglinton and Sheppard. Last time I checked, there are no subway stations planned for eglinton, so I don't see how your 90° nitpicking is relevant. All stations will be the same distance apart as the smart track, and on the same street.

I doubt they'd be the same riders. Are the riders at existing Ellesmere station really going to head east to Scarborough Centre to catch subway? Will those at Lawrence East station head east to McCowan? I don't think so.

So you're saying that the smart track will have no effect on the subway ridership? The buses that currently bring riders to Lawrence and Ellesmere SRT stations that you mention, will also bring those same riders to the smart track line that will get people downtown much faster and comfortably than the subway. Guess which option many people will chose? There is no way that the subway ridership (whose projections could be phony to begin with) will not be cannibalized.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Tory is just blowing hot air. No doubt if he was elected the province would put his harebrained policies in line pretty quickly.

 

[GenerationW]

Tory is just blowing hot air. No doubt if he was elected the province would put his harebrained policies in line pretty quickly.

Should we also presume the province would get Chow or Soknacki in line if they tried to cancel the B-D extension?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The smarttack is just frequent service on the electrified Stouffville line. We still need more frequent service on the Stouffville line if they extend the Danforth subway a couple of stops. Whether you add a stop at Ellesmere and Lawrence East or not doesn't really change the plan.

We've already got commitments to build both, and there wasn't much objection based on duplication.

The big issue is that Tory is promising a lot less than the Liberal government has already committed to delivering.

It is dupilcation. If SmartTrack is going downtown faster without a transfer, why would you take the subway?

That 1.5 km jog along Eglinton is insignificant compared to the 6 km between Eglinton and Sheppard. Last time I checked, there are no subway stations planned for eglinton, so I don't see how your 90° nitpicking is relevant. All stations will be the same distance apart as the smart track, and on the same street.




So you're saying that the smart track will have no effect on the subway ridership? The buses that currently bring riders to Lawrence and Ellesmere SRT stations that you mention, will also bring those same riders to the smart track line that will get people downtown much faster and comfortably than the subway. Guess which option many people will chose? There is no way that the subway ridership (whose projections could be phony to begin with) will not be cannibalized.

Ridership will crater once smarttrack opens. Even the current go plans along lakeshore will crater the ridership.

 

[rbt]

Should we also presume the province would get Chow or Soknacki in line if they tried to cancel the B-D extension?

They can't cancel the extension; they can pull city funding and the cities guarantee to cover cost overruns, and send the file back to Metrolinx to decide what approach to take.

The challenge for the next mayor is going to be boosting property taxes by another 5% to pay for a promise that Ford and Stintz made; tough pill to swallow politically. Either you cancel it before the EA, or it gets cancelled after the EA ($100M later) says it costs more than expected, or we get lucky and Stintz/Ford did their math right.

I don't have a whole lot of confidence in Ford's ability to do math.

Gardiner has the same type of problem. Ford is promising future mayors will pay for it without taking any steps to ensure money will actually be available to use. Miller signed a lot of spending contracts (downtown streetcars being the most expensive) but he also backed them up with funding (mostly LTT).

 

[nfitz]

Last time I checked, there are no subway stations planned for eglinton, so I don't see how your 90° nitpicking is relevant.

Last time I checked, there was no plan yet. They just released a plan to develop a plan. At least one councillor has suggested an Eglinton/Brimely/Danforth station. And you start looking at the map, and how many buses go through that intersection, then it's almost inevitable. Presumably it will fall out during the planning process.

All stations will be the same distance apart as the smart track, and on the same street.

No they won't. The Smart Track calls for station on Ellesmere. There are no plans for that.

Not sure where you are going with this. Do you suggest that the by electrifying GO and adding stations, that we can eliminate service to Scarborough Centre.

So you're saying that the smart track will have no effect on the subway ridership?

I'm saying it won't do away with the need to get from Ellesmere to Scarborough Centre. You only have to look at the demand of the current stations to see that almost all the SRT ridership is going to Scarborough Centre. Electrified GO doesn't get them there.

It is dupilcation. If SmartTrack is going downtown faster without a transfer, why would you take the subway?

Because SmartTrack doesn't get you to McCowan and Scarborough Centre. How do you get from those areas to SmartTrack?

And why do you think everyone at Kennedy is heading downtown, way south of Front Street? I ride the Danforth subway in AM rush hour. A LOT of people get off between Kennedy and Sherbourne. A lot get on Yonge northbound. A lot don't get off at Yonge. And most people on Yonge southbound get off before King.

Remember that the Yonge station with the most AM arrivals is Dundas. Start checking the travel times ... the subway is just as fast to get to Dundas as GO from Kennedy - and much more frequent. Heck, if they DO build a DRL, there'd be even more reason to take the subway over GO given the faster travel times on that line (with less stations).