With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

[syn]

Really, you are so entirely close-minded and blind it is sad. More to the point, it speaks to the true state of Canada when every discourse degenerates into this pathetic name calling.

LOL

This coming from the person who routinely insults anyone who doesn't share his background?

Hilarious.

 

[urbandreamer]

Atlthough blaming the TTC's state of affairs on "immigrants" is actually correct--all of Toronto is made up of immigrants and their descendants.

Really it is the TTC's management to blame though; they are the so-called "experts" and clearly don't give a damn about anything other than holding on to their jobs.

kEiThZ

The problem is that we attack these issues from the legal perspective. We say, oh they should conform to our laws and everything will be fine. This is lowest common denominator of social order and interaction. It does not aim to foster community and social interaction, it aims to foster tolerance....as in we can stand each other, but we shouldn't really be friends. What we should be doing is attacking these base cultural attitudes, that don't fit our western social norms. As in you can dress how you want, we don't expect you to lift up your veil. But likewise, here in Canada, your daughter can dress how she wants even if her wardrobe includes applebottom jeans or punk rags.

Actually, the idea of society or a govt controlling what I may or may not wear is very frightening! Btw, you should study the Amish! Your daughter may not dress how she wants; usually, it is the parents duty to suggest appropriate behaviours/dress codes etc. For example, try being shunned by an Amish community for not dressing to their social norm; or growing up in a strict Orthodox Jewish community and coming home dressed in "punk rags." Ouch. So most people don't kill their children....but imagine being tossed out of the family network with zero financial support! It happens more often than you think....right here in Toronto.

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Ultimately, Toronto's masses of non-white immigrants have only been in Canada for a a few decades.... It will take centuries for them to fully (or hey, even partially) integrate. So many people want things "right now."

 

[syn]

You know what I notice? At the elementary level, schools have become very diverse and not fragmented at all, but as people grow older, it tends to start to separate. In other words, when I was in elementary school, I don't think I even realized what race was, and it didn't seem to matter with any of my friends. People made friends with whoever wanted to be friends with them. But as you get older, the groups tend to separate. In high school, you start to see racial grouping. When you get to University, where you aren't in small classrooms anymore, you get these large "Chinese Student club" and etc. IMO these kind of things are a huge mistake.

And I think that it's also due to "multiculturalism". Every group still keeps their own community alive and distinct from everyone else, so of course an Arab youth is going to be more inclined to be friends with another Arab youth. And that's not diversity, that's just more segregation and fragmentation. That's not to overinflate the problem. I've had many fulfilling friendships over the years and none has been with my own ethnic group. But the fact is, seeing people in groups with their own ethnicity is still more common than seeing inter-ethnic groups on the street. And that is a failure of "diversity".

I'm all for inter-cultural discourse. In fact, I would love to have discussions about Western history, Chinese aesthetics, Indian philosophy, and etc, but I don't see much opportunity for any of this, because these communities seem more interested in closing themselves off and having a separate identity.

Growing up, I also found it very common to spend time with friends of various different backgrounds. For me, this really hasn't changed; I have friends from almost any background you can think of. One thing I have noticed is that people who grew up in the city tend to have a much more diverse group of friends than their suburban counterparts. I think this is because you are exposed to a lot of people and a lot more frequently in the city; you have to adapt. In the suburbs I've found it's a lot easier to isolate yourself.

I agree to a certain extent regarding University groups. I noticed such groups in University as well. I even was involved with some of them. While there were certain groups that were very insular, I generally found they could be a great way to learn about other cultures and meet new people. You could certainly encounter some closed minds though. Overall, I don't think such groups are mistakes.

I think there will always be groups of people from certain backgrounds who enjoy spending time with each other. There will always be a shared cultural background that ties them together; there's nothing that can really be done to stop that. That doesn't mean they don't/can't have friends from other cultural groups. Personally, I've found there's more than enough room for people of all backgrounds in my life.

 

[Whoaccio]

Ultimately, Toronto's masses of non-white immigrants have only been in Canada for a a few decades.... It will take centuries for them to fully (or hey, even partially) integrate. So many people want things "right now."

Yea, i think a lot of people have unrealistic assumptions about immigration. Listening to some people, you sort of get the feeling people expect a Sikh immigrant to drop his turban and kirpan for a toque and a hockey stick the minute they get off the plane and anything less is an utter failure of our immigration policy. In reality this is going to be a generational issue.

 

[Dichotomy]

Actually, I do.

Not because of multiculturalism critiques, as I myself am opposed to the direction Canada is going in, even as the child of immigrants. However, Dichotomy's past posts, such as the typical "Africans should be happy they were brought over and enslaved against their will".

What it seems like is that Dichotomy has a deeply ingrained belief that, having randomly been born a white Canadian, he inherently deserves and is owed better than others, deserves credit for the accomplishments of others who are from a similar geographic area (Europe), and his words carry more weight in arguments than that of non-white Canadians and etc. He's never come out and directly made a racist statement, but I do think there is some belief of superiority he holds.

He constantly contradicts himself, and I think the main reason is that he simply doesn't like immigrants no matter what they do.

Example - in another thread in the "Toronto Issues" thread, someone brought up how immigrants can be just as "Canadian" as anyone else and can make complaints about the country. Dichotomy disagreed and said that those immigrants should remember that his white ancestors toiled for this country that those immigrants are now complaining about (again, the birthright thing pops up).

However, in this thread, Dichotomy is now criticizing immigrants who don't criticize the country saying they are bringing lower standards. In other words, if they complain, they don't have any right to, but if they don't, then this is also a bad thing. So no matter what they do, it is a bad thing.

I think it is very, very possible to criticize the idea of multi-culturalism and the fragmented environment that Toronto is heading in while not being a racist or making racist comments - however, I do not believe Dichotomy is a good example of this.

Okay, let me type this very slowly, since you obviously are a product of the public school system after the '70s: I do not contradict myself; you simply take great delight in seeing what you want to see and taking my words out of context. Reading comprehension is obviously not taught here any more. (I dare not suggest English is your second language, because that would be 'proof' that I am racist, no? LOL)

1) My remarks about Africa were inspired by no less than Zimbabwe's 'leader' (if I can use that term with respect to Mugabe) who, in a speech, actually thanked Great Britain for her language and infrastructure. The slaves brought over here TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO were certainly not better off at the time, but their great-great-great grandchildren certainly ARE. The whiners complaining about the slave trade TODAY should be damned thankful that their great-great-great-grandparents went through hell so that they can at least have the opportunity to better themselves in the modern world. I know I am grateful my great great grandparents decided England was intolerable and came here (actually, the States first).
EVERY single state (including South Africa) has gone into decline after the colonial powers left. That is a fact. Even the 'natives' are not any better off since white rule ended. Am I advocating white rule? Certainly not. But the tribal hatreds that the whites supressed have, without exception, resurfaced. Rhodesia and Kenya were among the wealthiest countries in Africa, 50 or 60 years ago. Now they are both economic basket cases. Were the Afrikans benefiting from the 'better' economic standing back then? Not all. But many did. Now, so many in those countries are starving. And with the absence of the colonial powers, thousand year old tribal wars have picked up right where they left off.
If the 'persons of color' think things are so awful for them here, why don't they go back to Africa, then? Every wage of immigrant, whether the starving Irish or the enslaved black peoples, came here for reasons beyond their control. Do you think the Irish during the potato famine was any better off than the warring tribes in Africa during the same time period? Do you think the Irish really wanted to come to this barren wasteland?

2) Do we all, as Canadians, not take pride for the medals being won in China right now? Other than dating an Olympic contender 25 years ago, I have no more contribution to Canada's Olympic success than anyone else on this Board, yet I still cheer them on. Having NO other passports alone should give me more rights than someone, just off the plane because I am commited to this country. I can't flee back to wherever I came from if this place falls apart.
3) Syn, have you been to Africa lately? I have. I spent 5 weeks on a tour through Ethopia and Kenya. I came away with a deep respect for how the ancient people live (I witnessed a young woman being flogged in a sexual-coming of age ritual and she was honored to be flogged!), but at the same time their poverty only works for them if they are ignorant of how the rest of the world works. Do you think women who undergo forced circumcision know any better? Would you want your daughter to undergo that? Television and the internet are upsetting those countries in ways that the politics of the day cannot comprehend, nor handle.
4) My remarks about recent immigrants are based on proven fact and easy observation. Look at the living conditions of many of these people in their home lands. If they are used to cockroaches, no elevators, incompetent civil servants, poor transit, etc., it's not that they are somehow intellectually inferior to know the difference, it's that they cannot see the difference. I am not talking about the young professonials coming from HK or Mexico. They are not the ones crowding into Thorncliffe Park or St. Jamestown. More than half our immigrants are coming from the family class and refugees. Those numbers are out of control. Even the number of illegals who come here on student/tourist visas that never leave. Or refugee comlainants that just skip town after their appeals are exhausted.
Let me put it another way: if you've only ever driven a Cavalier, you might think it a fine car. However, if you get a Cadillac as a loaner one day, won't you then ask yourself what you've been missing? Well, Toronto was once a Cadillac and now it is a Cavalier. Anyone who has lived here 30 + years and ventured beyong their gated communities can see that. Nobody can blame recent immigrants for not knowing the difference, but we certainly cannot expect them to be at the forefront of fixing things when they are satisfied with how things are, can we?

We have such a double standard in Canada. If I, as a white man, am proud of my British heritage above all others, I am 'racist; however, if Muslims or Chinese, are proud of their heritage above all others - then, what? Are they not 'racist,' too?

As French philosopher Jean-Francois Revel wrote,"Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself." Is that where we're heading in Canada?
You conveniently left out one of the strongest arguments I have ever come across: "At the core of multiculturalism is an assumption that a non-Western culture is somehow primal and immutable but that an advanced nation is no more than the sum of its constituent parts."

Canada is stronger because of the indentured Chinese laborers that built the railways, or the pacts the British made with the Natives to keep out the Americans during the war of 1812; however, if we do not acknowledge that it is the strengths of the Franco-Anglo traditions and beliefs that made this country the best to live in of all the world, Canada will be crushed by our own cultural inertia. Belgium is literally unravelling as I write this. Is that what we want?

After all: why is it that both North and South America were colonized at the same time, both continents filled with displaced and often miserably poor individuals, yet North America clearly rose above South on all measurable levels: economic, political, cultural?

We need to ask why it is the former colonies of the countries of the northern European states that have come to lead the world in all levels of science, technology, commerce and education, while the former colonies of the southern European nations continue to flounder.

This is not about the color of one's skin. I could care less what color a person's skin is! However, I will not deny the obvious truths about WHY Canada, the United States and Australia (among a very few others, to be sure) are the center of so much envy and power.

If I am wrong, then why are these three countries virtually the only three that people are clamoring to get into?

 

[Whoaccio]

I am going to do this in parts, so give me some slack.

2) Do we all, as Canadians, not take pride for the medals being won in China right now? Other than dating an Olympic contender 25 years ago, I have no more contribution to Canada's Olympic success than anyone else on this Board, yet I still cheer them on. Having NO other passports alone should give me more rights than someone, just off the plane because I am commited to this country. I can't flee back to wherever I came from if this place falls apart

No, it shouldn't qualify you for anything more in terms of fundamental rights. The entire idea behind citizenship is that it is non-negotiable, you either have it or you don't. If you introduce covenants into it, society is no longer among equals. You could argue that we should be less liberal with dispensing citizenship, or that citizenship itself should carry less rights, but creating different classes of citizenship is a recipe for strife. And who is to say who merits what? The government? I would love to see the bureaucratic framework by which a Govt employee judges each and every Canadian to assess their loyalty to the country.

4) My remarks about recent immigrants are based on proven fact and easy observation. Look at the living conditions of many of these people in their home lands. If they are used to cockroaches, no elevators, incompetent civil servants, poor transit, etc., it's not that they are somehow intellectually inferior to know the difference, it's that they cannot see the difference. I am not talking about the young professonials coming from HK or Mexico. They are not the ones crowding into Thorncliffe Park or St. Jamestown. More than half our immigrants are coming from the family class and refugees. Those numbers are out of control. Even the number of illegals who come here on student/tourist visas that never leave. Or refugee comlainants that just skip town after their appeals are exhausted.

That isn't an argument against immigration or multiculturalism, it is an argument against poverty. You admit that wealthy "professionals coming from HK or Mexico" aren't an issue but rather the poorer ones are. So, why stop there? The poor Newfound-Landers or Northerners that are equally used to "cockroaches, no elevators and poor transit" doesn't seem to be a major concern to you. And why should it? Nobody is suggesting Newfies are poor because they are white, they are poor because NL is an economically marginal rock.

We have such a double standard in Canada. If I, as a white man, am proud of my British heritage above all others, I am 'racist; however, if Muslims or Chinese, are proud of their heritage above all others - then, what? Are they not 'racist,' too?

That isn't necessarily true. There are tons of ways of celebrating British culture without being racist. Canada day, St. Patty's, Victoria Day and tons of other holidays celebrate definitely Anglo-American values without any accusations of racism. The difference between celebrating you're heritage and "white-pride", a convenient misnomer to confuse the negative implications of the ideology, is night and day. There is a difference between celebrating you're past and harping about how others are inferior to you. The "white-pride" movement has nothing to do with being proud of you're heritage, most of them likely wouldn't even know it if it bite them in the ass, and everything to do with slaggin others. Incidentally, if an immigrant comes to Canada specifically to be hostile to another group it is no less racist and deserves similar treatment.

Canada is stronger because of the indentured Chinese laborers that built the railways, or the pacts the British made with the Natives to keep out the Americans during the war of 1812; however, if we do not acknowledge that it is the strengths of the Franco-Anglo traditions and beliefs that made this country the best to live in of all the world, Canada will be crushed by our own cultural inertia. Belgium is literally unravelling as I write this. Is that what we want?

Belgium is a relatively good example of why multiculturalism works. Both the Flemish and Wallonians are so obsessed with their own cultural superiority that they can't even work together. Instead of co-operating and just letting differences be differences, they are obsessed about proving to the other why their way of life, which is identical by the way, is superior. It is childish and immature. As for preserving Franco-Anglo traditions, that is the point of our criminal code and charter. We expect all immigrants to accept fundamental elements of political and social liberalism, democracy and market economies. A part of Franco-(more-so-Anglo)-values is an acceptance of different social norms, so long as they don't conflict with others basic rights.

 

[theowne]

Dearest Dichotomy,

That's a great string of insults you've got there in the first paragraph. I especially like the "LOL" at the end, very sophisticated, especially for someone who is criticizing someone else's English abilities. Considering that the top average marks in the English literacy exam came from groups who had English as a second language, I'll take that as a compliment.

Also, we really have to teach you how to carry on debates without bringing up personal anecdotes every few seconds. It really isn't a great way to convince people. Also, I don't like to repeat myself. You are arguing points that I never made, for example, being proud of "heritage". If you reread earlier pages carefully, it is a very specific issue that was being discussed. Similarly, I have never denied many of the arguments against multiculturalism listed. Oh, and no, I don't think I'd agree that you inherently and automatically deserve more rights than me because by accident of birth, you were born in Canada. Anyone can type "I'm not a racist", but it's the general tone of their posts that says the most about them.

I'm still confused as to how you can simultaneously say immigrants don't have a right to complain about Canada while also saying that they don't complain enough.

It's stupid **** like this:

Fortunately for you, you do have the 'right' to voice your opinion in this country; however, forgive those of us whose parents and grand parents sweated and died to build this country so you have that 'right.'

In other words, Dichotomy feels he has earned some greater standing/right than others because he was born as a white Canadian. But, in this thread, he also complains about how immigrants don't voice negative opinions enough.

You seem to be unable to debate with someone who doesn't fit your mold of what an evil immigrant should be, and just copy-pasting your typical rant.

 

[syn]

Dichotomy should prepare his "Virtues of Slavery" speech for the next Black History Month. I'm sure everyone will be thrilled to hear how great slavery was!

 

[Glen]

As Alvin suggested - if you feel you're beyond that then leave. I'm not sure anyone will miss you.

I would. He certainly provides a relief form the group think that occurs here. Quite frankly, his points seem to have gone over the heads of most here.

Call me foolish but I like the separation of church and state, free and open elections, charter of rights (save sec. 1 and the poor inter of sec. 15), common law etc. The issue of immigration diluting support of such is a very valid one.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Glen:

Actually, don't blame the dilution of THAT on the immigrants - the most vociferous opposition often comes from the right and their supporters.

AoD

 

[Tewder]

The unfortunate thing for Canada is how Multiculturalism has made an enemy out of the immigrant. Shame. There is nothing wrong with the immigrant, we all are or were one at one point in time, and Canada needs immigration to function in the face of its declining birth rate. We should respect people who choose to come here and contribute to our society. There is also nothing wrong with diversity. All have something to contribute to Canada, and as a population we are definitely stronger in our diversity. The issue, however, is that Canada needs to demand more of its immigrants (leaving past loyalties and grudges at home, changing certain cultural practices that are not compatible with Canadian law and charter etc), and needs to offer more by way of assimilation. We also need to be proud of our past and our traditions and laws, without feer of being branded 'racist', for yes they have indeed made Canada the place it is today. This is worth preservation, and a little Canadian ethnocentrism. Down with Multiculturalism, I say. Vive la difference too!

 

[Glen]

Glen:

Actually, don't blame the dilution of THAT on the immigrants - the most vociferous opposition often comes from the right and their supporters.

AoD

I fight it there also.

 

[syn]

I would. He certainly provides a relief form the group think that occurs here. Quite frankly, his points seem to have gone over the heads of most here.

Quite the contrary. He's all too obvious.

Call me foolish but I like the separation of church and state, free and open elections, charter of rights (save sec. 1 and the poor inter of sec. 15), common law etc. The issue of immigration diluting support of such is a very valid one.

I like all of these things too. The idea that immigrants are a danger to all of this is nothing new; it's just been discredited. Many immigrants are looking to come to a country where seperation of church and state exist, etc.

Besides, it's not like these are all issues that Canadian born citizens agree on 100%. There are many Canadian born citizens that like the idea of publicly funded religious schools, for example.

 

[theowne]

Meh.

I think it's a fine line between opposing multiculturalism or the dilution of a unified culture in Canada, and stepping over to a more general anti-foreigner perspective. Some people may draw that distinction in different places. Some people might see all of it as some sort of wonderful anti-political-correctness rebellion and thus blindly support it. I don't know. It's a complex issue.

For all the people who jump to accuse racism without reading carefully, there are just as many people who jump to accuse of political correctness and "going over people's heads" without understanding carefully.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

The issue, however, is that Canada needs to demand more of its immigrants (leaving past loyalties and grudges at home, changing certain cultural practices that are not compatible with Canadian law and charter etc), and needs to offer more by way of assimilation. We also need to be proud of our past and our traditions and laws, without feer of being branded 'racist', for yes they have indeed made Canada the place it is today. This is worth preservation, and a little Canadian ethnocentrism. Down with Multiculturalism, I say.

Immigrants are already subjected to Canadian law. Any practices congruent with that is not the purview of the government. Beyond that, just what does our "past traditions" mean, exactly, and where do we stop? It could range from our institutions (which is by and large respected by all) all the way to prohibition of Sunday shopping - something that even modern Canadians won't stand for.

One can't even define with Canadian ethnocentrism is, beyond some vague myth and the general belief in peace, order and good government - something immigrants haven't changed, really. In fact, considering how many immigrants comes from mutually antagonistic nations, ethnic and religious groups (e.g. Greeks and Turks; Indians and Pakistanis; Jews and Muslims, etc), I think Canada is doing a pretty good job allowing people to retain their various identities while at the same time, detoxifying the more vulgar aspects. You might not like it, but that's VERY Canadian.

AoD