With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

[Tewder]

Conceptually, they are both so vague and unimportant that comparison is idiotic. Outside of a few limericks, there is literally no difference between how the two systems function. Both accept that cultural choices are to be left to the individual (so long as other's rights aren't infringed) and that the state is not in the business of forcing conformity. The only difference is in wording. Canadian multi-culturalism stresses the right of individuals to choose their lifestyle while the American "fruit-pot", or whatever metonym, stresses the inability of the state to force conformity. They are identical

This is not an issue of 'lifestyle' or 'cultural choices' or linguistic trope for that matter. The issue is one of national identity, simply put. In the Melting Pot of the States there is only one, which is that of the U.S.A. and all that it stands for. This is what informs state funding and policy. This is what one pledges allegiance to.

In Canada, 'Multiculturalism' as integral to the Canadian identity is an imbedded part of Canadian policy, government and law. From the Canadian Multiculturalism Act it is the 'policy' of the Government of Canada to:

"recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism reflects the cultural and racial diversity of Canadian society..."

This is hardly a 'vague' or 'idiotic' splitting of hairs. The Canadian concept and practice of Multiculturalism is hugely different from the USA, or all other nations, where assimilation is used to promote unity and nationhood.

Politically, the USA and Canada are once again virtually identical.

See previous point.

 

[theowne]

I had the VP of a major insurance company

You sure do know a lot of people who just so happen to be in a position which allows them to say things that contribute to your overall point....!

 

[adma]

Dichotomy: it may not matter what you're saying, because your conduct and tone is cancelling you out. This "angry middle-aged conservative dude looking for a place to vent and spew" schtick is exactly what's tainted and discredited many a web forum out there...

 

[syn]

Not so in Toronto where half the drivers were driving in Bangkok, Mumbai, Beijing or herding goats 6 months ago, and now they are driving a car in a congested city with over crowded roads and - guess what - they cannot possibly know what the other driver is going to do!

WOW, you're so sophisticated and worldly!

Do you really think driving a car in Toronto is worse than it is in Bangkok, Mumbai or Beijing? These are some of the most congested cities in the world.

 

[Dichotomy]

You sure do know a lot of people who just so happen to be in a position which allows them to say things that contribute to your overall point....!

As I have stated, I live in a varied world. Just because you do not, is not reason to throw stones. Additionally, I have given a great deal of thought to these issues over a few decades. This is not just something I decided to examine last week! I protested Anita Bryant in the early '80s and argued with my friends about Darlington. I also tangled with my Classics professor about why NOTHING whatsoever was mentioned about homosexuality in either the Greek or Roman empire discussions - that was 1978, not 2008.

I cannot stress the point that being gay since 6 years old (even before I knew what it was called) has given me a different outlook on life and on authority. I challenge conformity and convention always. It takes guts to stand up to your parents at 15 and tell them you are in love with your best friend. Especially when your father was a brown belt in karate and a truck driver!
Although I have am empathic feeling for the challenges of new Canadians, I also understand that if we allow Canada to be absorbed by THEIR attitudes, what makes this the best country on earth will slip away. That much is obvious. Interestingly, it is the gays and women who have the most to lose by the conservative attitudes of many newcomers.
We assume that people come here for a better life and that it is understood that they will leave their prejudices, anger and strife behind. From my experience, that is largely untrue.
My partner and many of my friends are 'new Canadians.' My favorite aunt is from Belize (my uncle married a woman from British Honduras in 1968 - how is that for trail blazing?)
Or maybe it's just that I've kept a journal for most of my life and have documented many of the changes around me.

I have eyes and I have ears. Just because I use them and you do not is no reason to get all prissy about it.

 

[Dichotomy]

Dichotomy: it may not matter what you're saying, because your conduct and tone is cancelling you out. This "angry middle-aged conservative dude looking for a place to vent and spew" schtick is exactly what's tainted and discredited many a web forum out there...

I am angry and (sigh) I guess I am middle-aged (although in age friendly lighting I've been told I look 35 ), but conservative I am not. If you are not angry, too, then you are not paying attention.

Both the Liberals and Conservatives are losing their core members because in these complex times a person's 'politics' can no longer be pigeon-holed. Even the Sun, which was once rabidly anti-gay, has now changed its stripes with the times. You will not find me hanging out on any white supremist sites (frankly, I don't know of any).
I am a puzzlement to many of my friends because as a gay man, I don't know any show tunes, love cars, prefer to go camping or water skiing over Key West and am decidedly 'conservative' in my economic views.
I am pro-choice, an atheist who is 'married' to a Jahova's Witness (not practicing, really), the brother to a female electrician and have many Asian friends, who frankly agree with my politics.
Don't attempt to pigeon-hole me, sir. Do not mistake my passion for anger. The process of 'landing' my partner and then his eventual citizenship has opened my eyes, first hand, to a lot of issues. Then seeing what goes on in my line of work and through my extensive network of associates has made my concerns 'boil over.'

 

[Dichotomy]

WOW, you're so sophisticated and worldly!

Do you really think driving a car in Toronto is worse than it is in Bangkok, Mumbai or Beijing? These are some of the most congested cities in the world.

And so they should be, but is that what we aspire to?

That's the duality of the Toronto argument that pisses me off. We compare ourselves to 'world class' cities whenever it suits us (banning cars from downtown, for example) but then quickly change hats and say 'well, we aren't as bad as so-and-so city.

Which is it?

And if we don't demand more NOW we will end up with Mumbai's traffic, because as more and more people move here from those countries they don't know any better. They accept our crappy subways and our shitty highways, because it is 'better' than what they left.
Well, it is not 'better' than what we deserve, nor in fact what we once had. Forty years ago, this city was well on its way to becoming 'world class.' Somehow, the '70s derailed everything.
Fifty percent of this city don't demand better because this is BETTER than what they left. Well, I am a member of the other 50%, and I am fed up with the way this city is going.

Good enough is not any more.

 

[syn]

Although I have am empathic feeling for the challenges of new Canadians, I also understand that if we allow Canada to be absorbed by THEIR attitudes, what makes this the best country on earth will slip away. That much is obvious. Interestingly, it is the gays and women who have the most to lose by the conservative attitudes of many newcomers.
We assume that people come here for a better life and that it is understood that they will leave their prejudices, anger and strife behind. From my experience, that is largely untrue.

I guess you expect them to adopt your prejudices?

You're full of stories but short on facts. No one really cares about your stories if you can't ever back them up with factual evidence.

Anyone can make up stories to try and present themselves as an expert.

 

[syn]

And so they should be, but is that what we aspire to?

That's the duality of the Toronto argument that pisses me off. We compare ourselves to 'world class' cities whenever it suits us (banning cars from downtown, for example) but then quickly change hats and say 'well, we aren't as bad as so-and-so city.

Which is it?

And if we don't demand more NOW we will end up with Mumbai's traffic, because as more and more people move here from those countries they don't know any better. They accept our crappy subways and our shitty highways, because it is 'better' than what they left.
Well, it is not 'better' than what we deserve, nor in fact what we once had. Forty years ago, this city was well on its way to becoming 'world class.' Somehow, the '70s derailed everything.
Fifty percent of this city don't demand better because this is BETTER than what they left. Well, I am a member of the other 50%, and I am fed up with the way this city is going.

Good enough is not any more.

LOL

What are you talking about?

You suggested cab drivers from these places are not used to driving in the congested conditions present in Toronto. The fact is these places are a lot more congested than Toronto.

Now you're ranting about immigrants being responsible for the state of our subways? Aside from being completely off topic, it's a ridiculous suggestion in itself. I mean, it's not as though public funding or government/public attitudes towards public transit could having anything to do with it...no. It's immigrants who "don't know any better" and the 'other 50%" responsible for keeping this city down.

But I forgot, you keep telling us you're worldy and sophisticated, so you must be...even if you keep sprouting your ridiculous KKK rally nonsense.

 

[Dichotomy]

LOL

What are you talking about?

You suggested cab drivers from these places are not used to driving in the congested conditions present in Toronto. The fact is these places are a lot more congested than Toronto.

Now you're ranting about immigrants being responsible for the state of our subways? Aside from being completely off topic, it's a ridiculous suggestion in itself. I mean, it's not as though public funding or government/public attitudes towards public transit could having anything to do with it...no. It's immigrants who "don't know any better" and the 'other 50%" responsible for keeping this city down.

But I forgot, you keep telling us you're worldy and sophisticated, so you must be...even if you keep sprouting your ridiculous KKK rally nonsense.

Are you that obtuse? Have you not seen the state of the trains in Mumbai? Why would any former citizen of Mumbai complain about our inferior TTC subways? Compared to theirs, ours is paradise.
I suggest you go to Thorncliffe Park and visit some of those highrises. One that I was in recently had a huge, hand written sign that stated: Occupany by more than 10 persons is not only unlawful, it is dangerous. What did I see, about 15 Indo-Canadians come pouring out of the elevator. I took the stairs. They don't know any better living conditions, so won't be complaining when the elevators break down because they are so over-crowded.
Good grief. Some of you sound like you live under a rock somewhere. Or in Kingsway. Do you even LIVE in this city? Or just Kensington?
These immigrants are not 'responsible' for our subways, but they won't be complaining about them because, to them, they are fantastic compared to what they left.
And where are most of our cab driver's coming from? Did they even DRIVE a car in their homeland, or were they herding goats? Don't buy into the urban myth that they are all PHDs from Mumbai, being held back by big ol' white Canada. How many taxi drivers do you know? How 'bad is the traffic in Somalia or Ethopia, because that is where many of our taxi drivers are from.
And my point about the 'bad' drivers in this city is not about which group of drivers are better than the other, but only that because Toronto's driver's are a mixed-bag of drivers from around the globe, the 'understood' conventions and habits are out the window. Toot the horn in Dubai, it's okay; here, you're being rude. This has consequences for all of us, including precious cyclists.

 

[Dichotomy]

I guess you expect them to adopt your prejudices?

You're full of stories but short on facts. No one really cares about your stories if you can't ever back them up with factual evidence.

Anyone can make up stories to try and present themselves as an expert.

I have backed it up by facts: read Who Gets In, by Daniel Stofman. He spent a few years studying out immigration system. The Atkinson Foundation paid for it - you don't get much more lilly-Liberal than that.

I'm not going to waste my time seaching for cute links to other websites because I still read books. Or perhaps we could just link the entire Wikopedia library here. Would that suit you?

PS: some people DO care about my stories, judging by the PMs I've gotten.

 

[lordmandeep]

Are you that obtuse? Have you not seen the state of the trains in Mumbai? Why would any former citizen of Mumbai complain about our inferior TTC subways? Compared to theirs, ours is paradise.

Then how is the immigrant at fault then.

He does not now any better.



Reality is, that it is shame that people born here and educated here especially on this board find our subways to be in good condition.


Blame the right people, please.

 

[Dichotomy]

Then how is the immigrant at fault then.

He does not now any better.



Reality is, that it is shame that people born here and educated here especially on this board find our subways to be in good condition.


Blame the right people, please.

Who votes in this city? The 'white' middle class are the most disenfranchised, disconnected lot because they've given up. The other half who are recent Canadians are probably more involved, but they aren't going to be upset by the state of our roads/subways because compared to where they come from, ours are wonderful.
If you just arrived here, would you know how 'nice' this city was even 20 years ago, relatively speaking? If you came from Mexico City or Mumbai, would you complain about our crappy TTC, rude employees or crowded roads? Not likely.
This isn't a matter of blame. Miller and his pals get away with what they do because nobody cares (or know enough to care) any more. Those of us who have seen this city fall have either moved away or don't care because we live in our comfy enclaves in Rosedale or south Etobicoke and what happens in this city doesn't affect us any more. Probably half the 'white' population in this city is going to be dead in 10 or 15 years anyway. What do they care?
Instead, we get endless debates about bicycle lanes, more cops on the beat and more homeless shelters because those are issues that matter to the Ryerson kids and the retired school teachers on Queen's Quay, rather than a debate about the issues that are important to the future of this city.

 

[kEiThZ]

But I forgot, you keep telling us you're worldy and sophisticated, so you must be...even if you keep sprouting your ridiculous KKK rally nonsense.

Come now guys, let's keep the rhetoric down. He is sharing his view and arguing it passionately. I haven't seen him come out and say that immigration is just plain wrong. I don't think anyone here really thinks that Dichotomy is racist. His concerns about the implementation of immigration policy are certainly valid.

I am an immigrant of Indian descent and I think there are issues with immigration. I don't like the fact that ethnic enclaves are popping up all over the GTA....NE Scarborough (Tamil), Brampton (Punjabi), Woodbridge (Italian), Markham (Chinese), etc.

I think this is a recipe for disaster. We are quickly heading the way of Montreal's north shore or the Paris banlieu. What happens when social interaction breaks down? I have a close friend who happens to be from the same part of India as me. Her family moved to Brampton and hates it there, because the Punjabis barely interact with her family or other non-punjabis. Her Italian neighbours up and left the neighbourhood. I have heard the same complaints from friends who live in particularly Chinese neighbourhoods in Markham. My parent's polish neighbours up and left...I am guessing they felt left out after being the only non-white family on the entire street of 50 houses. Does anyone here think this is good for our city or country?

Brampton is instituting a development freeze because of the problems that come with an uneven mix of cultures....in this case, large Punjabi and other Indian families that blew the city's 4 people and two cars per house, planning ratio out of the water. As a result, traffic is insane, transit is packed, and public utility infrastructure is taxed to the limit.

I think multi-culturalism as a policy should be debated. I doubt Pierre Trudeau intended the formation of ethnic ghettos when he promoted this policy. I doubt he imagined that someone could live their entire life in Canada with a minimal knowledge of English or French and survive in their little ethnic enclave. My parents moved here for the quality of life, and to escape the old worlds discriminatory attitudes (try being Catholic in India), and increasingly we are finding that many immigrants from the old country haven't dropped the old ways or attitudes and have a cavalier attitude towards developing a sense of community or civic pride in their neighbourhoods. Can anybody honestly say that Spadina wouldn't be cleaner if all the stores there weren't ethnic? (Littering is my personal pet peeve).... And I've had other indians tell me that my indian heritage is somehow not valid because I am catholic, that we shouldn't befriend black people, and to never do business with a Chinese person....this is all in T.O. I have never had comments like that from a white person. In fact, most of my white friends and colleagues are culturally curious, and culturally sensitive than most of the non-whites I know.

We should stop pretending that everything is on the up and up with immigration. It is a broken system that takes the educated masses of mostly the third world and dumps them on major Canadian cities without any due consideration to demanding at least a modicum of civility and tolerance. We don't demand that they learn our language, which at the very minimum would breed significant inter-cultural interaction and understanding, and improve their own condition in life. We don't demand that they adopt at least some of our customs and traditions (ie not littering, cultural/religious tolerance). And we pay lip service to the demand that they leave their old world baggage at the door.

The first step to fixing these problems is to talk about them openly. Accusing someone of being racist simply because he or she believes the system is flawed, has faults or is broken, will not solve anything. This country needs immigration. But we need to address the problems, both for our sake, and for the sake of the hopeful masses that show up on our shores.

 

[urbandreamer]

Here's another one of those (groan) personal examples....

A typical day in the life of my Punjabi friend:

Midnight-5AM: sleeps

5AM-8AM: chats via phone card or video chat with family in India

Works 8-6pm at his business (employees=all his cousins and family)

dinner at home (it's cheaper and he gets to socialize with his family--meaning 3 generations that live in his home, although he's "sponsoring" his parents, so while caught up in immigration limbo, they spend 6 months in Canada, 6 months in India. Why bring his parents here? His father has serious health problems...free medicare.)

7pm-midnight: chats via yahoo with video messenger with his family still in India, everyday of the week!--while watching Indian TV.

Often complains to me about how "Canada is inferior to India." I ask him what he thinks of Bombay--he hates the place because there's too much traffic, his ethnic group is unwelcome there (he's Punjabi), too much bribery etc. Fantasizes about taking control of the local planning department, remaking GTA's 'burbs in the image of his hometown--greater Chandigarh.

Re: his children. If his daughter dared marrying a non-Seikh, he would rather have her killed than have his name dishonoured. In 2008 Canada!)

Goes downtown: rarely. Perhaps twice a year, once for the annual Punjabi festival, twice for maybe the CNE.

Shops at: Wal-Mart and loves it!

Education level: Post Graduate

Years in Canada: Since he was in his teens (over twenty years in Canada.)

Considers himself "Canadian?" NO!

Is building his dream home/retirement residence in: India!

Non-Punjabi friends. One. (me.)

===================================================================================================


Of course, the Amish/Mennonites live in their own little "ghettos", and have done so for centuries, without really adapting or integrating into society....