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With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

Are you that obtuse?

No, but apparently you are.


Have you not seen the state of the trains in Mumbai? Why would any former citizen of Mumbai complain about our inferior TTC subways? Compared to theirs, ours is paradise.

What on earth does this have to do with their ability to drive taxis in Toronto? Are you seriously suggesting Toronto is more congested and difficult to drive in than Mumbai?

On the topic of subways and civic involvement, both Bangkok and Beijing, have pretty good, well kept transit systems that are continuously expanding. Even Mumbai is in the process of building modern new subway and light rail lines. If anything they'd probably find the pace of transit development in Toronto lagging.

Beijing:

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Bangkok:

travel45.jpg


bangkoksubway.jpg



I suggest you go to Thorncliffe Park and visit some of those highrises. One that I was in recently had a huge, hand written sign that stated: Occupany by more than 10 persons is not only unlawful, it is dangerous. What did I see, about 15 Indo-Canadians come pouring out of the elevator. I took the stairs. They don't know any better living conditions, so won't be complaining when the elevators break down because they are so over-crowded.

lol

Yet more of your stories. Do you honestly think this constitutes the standard living arrangement for all immigrants from South Asia, Asia, or anywhere else? Do you really think the building has no Canadian born presence? Do you really think the 50% of visible minorities in Toronto all live the same way?



Good grief. Some of you sound like you live under a rock somewhere. Or in Kingsway. Do you even LIVE in this city? Or just Kensington?
These immigrants are not 'responsible' for our subways, but they won't be complaining about them because, to them, they are fantastic compared to what they left.

lol

So in other words it's still their fault. What are immigrants doing trying to make a life for themselves here? They should be at Queen's Park every day protesting that the subways aren't good enough.


And where are most of our cab driver's coming from? Did they even DRIVE a car in their homeland, or were they herding goats? Don't buy into the urban myth that they are all PHDs from Mumbai, being held back by big ol' white Canada. How many taxi drivers do you know? How 'bad is the traffic in Somalia or Ethopia, because that is where many of our taxi drivers are from.

I see. So all of a sudden the cab drivers in Toronto are all goat herders from Somalia or Ethiopia now? What happened to Bangkok, Beijing and Mumbai?


And my point about the 'bad' drivers in this city is not about which group of drivers are better than the other, but only that because Toronto's driver's are a mixed-bag of drivers from around the globe, the 'understood' conventions and habits are out the window. Toot the horn in Dubai, it's okay; here, you're being rude. This has consequences for all of us, including precious cyclists.

You said:

and now they are driving a car in a congested city with over crowded roads and - guess what - they cannot possibly know what the other driver is going to do!

What I'm saying is that these roads, comparatively, aren't congested and overcrowded at all. In global terms, Toronto traffic isn't nearly as bad as you'd like everyone to think it is...and I seriously doubt it will take cab drivers that long to catch on.
 
It's actually frightening to think who is running big business these days; if in fact D's is a "big business." Although, the higher up I've gone in business, the dumber the people seem to be.

Now, here's another little story about Toronto.

I know this family that rarely ventures outside of their neighbourhood (except to go to the airport or Bloor St or their office), never pays taxes in Canada, only speaks in their native tongue, is suspicious of strangers, and moans about all the horrible traffic in Toronto.

Where do they live?

Rosedale!

What nationality are they?

Canadian Anglo Saxons.
 
Thank you for the candid post Keithz. You remind us that one can offer an honest criticism of Multiculturalism without fitting some liberal's fantasy stereotype of the xenophobic, white-supremacist (didn't somebody here use the term KKK!?) anti-immigrant racist. Indeed, it is sad and alarming that a valid debate about something that has such a fundamental and radical effect on our nation and society should repeatedly get shut down with name-calling, and the irony here is that it is usually those who are so quick to brand others as 'racist' who prove themselves, time and time again, to be the most intolerant and most narrow-minded.
 
syn, you're wasting your time with this simpleton.

I'd stoop to your level, but I've tackled bigger fry than you. I guess name calling is better than trying to come up with an original thought that hasn't been lifted from the front page of the Star.
 
Come now guys, let's keep the rhetoric down. He is sharing his view and arguing it passionately. I haven't seen him come out and say that immigration is just plain wrong. I don't think anyone here really thinks that Dichotomy is racist. His concerns about the implementation of immigration policy are certainly valid.

I think he is. It's pretty obvious.


I am an immigrant of Indian descent and I think there are issues with immigration. I don't like the fact that ethnic enclaves are popping up all over the GTA....NE Scarborough (Tamil), Brampton (Punjabi), Woodbridge (Italian), Markham (Chinese), etc.

I think this is a recipe for disaster. We are quickly heading the way of Montreal's north shore or the Paris banlieu. What happens when social interaction breaks down? I have a close friend who happens to be from the same part of India as me. Her family moved to Brampton and hates it there, because the Punjabis barely interact with her family or other non-punjabis. Her Italian neighbours up and left the neighbourhood. I have heard the same complaints from friends who live in particularly Chinese neighbourhoods in Markham. My parent's polish neighbours up and left...I am guessing they felt left out after being the only non-white family on the entire street of 50 houses. Does anyone here think this is good for our city or country?

Brampton is instituting a development freeze because of the problems that come with an uneven mix of cultures....in this case, large Punjabi and other Indian families that blew the city's 4 people and two cars per house, planning ratio out of the water. As a result, traffic is insane, transit is packed, and public utility infrastructure is taxed to the limit.

Immigrant groups have always congregated together, and understandably so. I agree all various groups should mix, but this problem isn't unique to immigrants; there are a lot of Anglo-Canadians that are perfectly content to stick with their group too.

As for planning, I wouldn't exactly put the blame on any one ethnic group. The built form in the suburbs has encouraged that kind of excess long before these immigrants arrived, and some of the biggest culprits are people born and raised here.


I think multi-culturalism as a policy should be debated. I doubt Pierre Trudeau intended the formation of ethnic ghettos when he promoted this policy. I doubt he imagined that someone could live their entire life in Canada with a minimal knowledge of English or French and survive in their little ethnic enclave. My parents moved here for the quality of life, and to escape the old worlds discriminatory attitudes (try being Catholic in India), and increasingly we are finding that many immigrants from the old country haven't dropped the old ways or attitudes and have a cavalier attitude towards developing a sense of community or civic pride in their neighbourhoods. Can anybody honestly say that Spadina wouldn't be cleaner if all the stores there weren't ethnic? (Littering is my personal pet peeve).... And I've had other indians tell me that my indian heritage is somehow not valid because I am catholic, that we shouldn't befriend black people, and to never do business with a Chinese person....this is all in T.O. I have never had comments like that from a white person. In fact, most of my white friends and colleagues are culturally curious, and culturally sensitive than most of the non-whites I know.

I agree, people should leave their prejudices at the door. However, these attitudes are usually diluted after a generation or two.

As for whites, they can be just as guilty of making such comments.


We should stop pretending that everything is on the up and up with immigration. It is a broken system that takes the educated masses of mostly the third world and dumps them on major Canadian cities without any due consideration to demanding at least a modicum of civility and tolerance. We don't demand that they learn our language, which at the very minimum would breed significant inter-cultural interaction and understanding, and improve their own condition in life. We don't demand that they adopt at least some of our customs and traditions (ie not littering, cultural/religious tolerance). And we pay lip service to the demand that they leave their old world baggage at the door.

The first step to fixing these problems is to talk about them openly. Accusing someone of being racist simply because he or she believes the system is flawed, has faults or is broken, will not solve anything. This country needs immigration. But we need to address the problems, both for our sake, and for the sake of the hopeful masses that show up on our shores.

Oh, I agree. There is no problem discussing immigration issues and concerns. But Dichotomy is clearly a racist. He makes such comments on a regular basis. His disdain for those who don't share his heritage is pretty obvious.
 
I think Dichotomy's problem is that he embodies the latent homosexuality of every David Clayton-Thomas-voiced meat-eating Conservative-voting SUV dad bundled up in a non-latent homosexual male. Like, he's just so *bursting* with raging beet-red Y-chromosome-cubed closed-circle testosterone upon testosterone that if he was forced into cunnilingus, he'd literally explode like Sunrise Petroleum
 
I think he is. It's pretty obvious.




Immigrant groups have always congregated together, and understandably so. I agree all various groups should mix, but this problem isn't unique to immigrants; there are a lot of Anglo-Canadians that are perfectly content to stick with their group too.

As for planning, I wouldn't exactly put the blame on any one ethnic group. The built form in the suburbs has encouraged that kind of excess long before these immigrants arrived, and some of the biggest culprits are people born and raised here.




I agree, people should leave their prejudices at the door. However, these attitudes are usually diluted after a generation or two.

As for whites, they can be just as guilty of making such comments.




Oh, I agree. There is no problem discussing immigration issues and concerns. But Dichotomy is clearly a racist. He makes such comments on a regular basis. His disdain for those who don't share his heritage is pretty obvious.


If putting Canada first makes me a racist, then I can live with that. If putting the Judeo-Christian principles of Socratic reasoning, rule of law and tragi-comic introspection ahead of the dogma that disguises itself as dialogue in today's politics makes me a racist, then I can live with that, too.

Either you can't read, or you are so blinded by YOUR prejudices and preconceptions of what you see around you that you hold all dissent in contempt.
I live with an immigrant. I lived with a black man for 4 years. I dated (albeit only for a few months) a Asian man from HK. How does this make me 'racist?' Really, on a scale of dogma, my ideas and thoughts are far more free-flowing than yours are, if that is the case.

Really, you are so entirely close-minded and blind it is sad. More to the point, it speaks to the true state of Canada when every discourse degenerates into this pathetic name calling.

Call me what you will, syn, my skin is much thicker than that, and I have endured far worse bullies than you.
 
I think Dichotomy's problem is that he embodies the latent homosexuality of every David Clayton-Thomas-voiced meat-eating Conservative-voting SUV dad bundled up in a non-latent homosexual male. Like, he's just so *bursting* with raging beet-red Y-chromosome-cubed closed-circle testosterone upon testosterone that if he was forced into cunnilingus, he'd literally explode like Sunrise Petroleum

Thanks for the $2 pscyo-analysis. Did you get your diploma from Cracker Jack, or send in 2 box tops from Fruit Loops?

To coin a phrase I used to use (a lot) 30 years ago:

"I am more of a man than you'll ever be and more of a woman than you'll ever get." :)
 
I don't know if Dichotomy is a racist (honestly, who the hell knows on the internet?) and I doubt anybody here has not had the same thoughts about the current state of multi-culturalism? Do I agree with him out and out? No. Do I think he is an idiot? Yes. But racist? Come on. That is the worst trick in the book to shutdown debate. Our system does have warts (like any system) and we would better off addressing them than calling each other racists and blaming white-people for all of societies woes. We all know Dichotomy isn't advocating a return to the Third Reich, so what is the gain in suggesting it?

Problems with immigration:

Having various ethnic enclaves (Sikh/Brampton, Tamil/Scarb, WASP/Oakville) doesn't lend well to society. Blame is a bit irrelevant in this case, were immigrants seclusive first or did non-immigrants exclude them? It is a chicken-or-egg question and no answer will every satisfy. What should be clear is that we should be concerned about ethnic seclusion.

I hate it. A lot of people, immigrant or otherwise, are very open minded people who honestly don't take ethnicity seriously. In every group though, there are people who have these innate prejudices. The Aqsa Parvez murder is the best example. That someone could murder their daughter for wearing jeans? That is a pretty serious failure of multi-culturalism. Examples like this range from the trivial to the deadly. You can't help but notice large homogeneous wolf-packs of people walking around Toronto. EVERY race. UofT is infested with these large ethnic conglomerations. We have about 12 different Chinese clubs. Do we really need a Chinese Engineering Association? Giant swarms of Koreans somehow manage to go through 4 years of university in Canada without learning english (those damn pocket translators should be illegal). It is just as pronounced in white people. I remember going for lunch with my god-father a while back, whiter than a Saudi's robes, and driving along the highway there was a mosque. He began wondering aloud whether or not they were "against us or not". He isn't racist, and he is a good person, but it really illustrated how little we really know each other. Sometimes, I can't help but think the only reason we don't have race riots is because we don't really interact at all.
 
I don't think anyone here really thinks that Dichotomy is racist.

Actually, I do.

Not because of multiculturalism critiques, as I myself am opposed to the direction Canada is going in, even as the child of immigrants. However, Dichotomy's past posts, such as the typical "Africans should be happy they were brought over and enslaved against their will".

What it seems like is that Dichotomy has a deeply ingrained belief that, having randomly been born a white Canadian, he inherently deserves and is owed better than others, deserves credit for the accomplishments of others who are from a similar geographic area (Europe), and his words carry more weight in arguments than that of non-white Canadians and etc. He's never come out and directly made a racist statement, but I do think there is some belief of superiority he holds.

He constantly contradicts himself, and I think the main reason is that he simply doesn't like immigrants no matter what they do.

Example - in another thread in the "Toronto Issues" thread, someone brought up how immigrants can be just as "Canadian" as anyone else and can make complaints about the country. Dichotomy disagreed and said that those immigrants should remember that his white ancestors toiled for this country that those immigrants are now complaining about (again, the birthright thing pops up).

However, in this thread, Dichotomy is now criticizing immigrants who don't criticize the country saying they are bringing lower standards. In other words, if they complain, they don't have any right to, but if they don't, then this is also a bad thing. So no matter what they do, it is a bad thing.

I think it is very, very possible to criticize the idea of multi-culturalism and the fragmented environment that Toronto is heading in while not being a racist or making racist comments - however, I do not believe Dichotomy is a good example of this.
 
You can't help but notice large homogeneous wolf-packs of people walking around Toronto. EVERY race. UofT is infested with these large ethnic conglomerations. We have about 12 different Chinese clubs. Do we really need a Chinese Engineering Association?

You know what I notice? At the elementary level, schools have become very diverse and not fragmented at all, but as people grow older, it tends to start to separate. In other words, when I was in elementary school, I don't think I even realized what race was, and it didn't seem to matter with any of my friends. People made friends with whoever wanted to be friends with them. But as you get older, the groups tend to separate. In high school, you start to see racial grouping. When you get to University, where you aren't in small classrooms anymore, you get these large "Chinese Student club" and etc. IMO these kind of things are a huge mistake.

And I think that it's also due to "multiculturalism". Every group still keeps their own community alive and distinct from everyone else, so of course an Arab youth is going to be more inclined to be friends with another Arab youth. And that's not diversity, that's just more segregation and fragmentation. That's not to overinflate the problem. I've had many fulfilling friendships over the years and none has been with my own ethnic group. But the fact is, seeing people in groups with their own ethnicity is still more common than seeing inter-ethnic groups on the street. And that is a failure of "diversity".

I'm all for inter-cultural discourse. In fact, I would love to have discussions about Western history, Chinese aesthetics, Indian philosophy, and etc, but I don't see much opportunity for any of this, because these communities seem more interested in closing themselves off and having a separate identity.
 
You know what I notice? At the elementary level, schools have become very diverse and not fragmented at all, but as people grow older, it tends to start to separate. In other words, when I was in elementary school, I don't think I even realized what race was, and it didn't seem to matter with any of my friends. People made friends with whoever wanted to be friends with them. But as you get older, the groups tend to separate. In high school, you start to see racial grouping. When you get to University, where you aren't in small classrooms anymore, you get these large "Chinese Student club" and etc. IMO these kind of things are a huge mistake.

And I think that it's also due to "multiculturalism". Every group still keeps their own community alive and distinct from everyone else, so of course an Arab youth is going to be more inclined to be friends with another Arab youth. And that's not diversity, that's just more segregation and fragmentation. That's not to overinflate the problem. I've had many fulfilling friendships over the years and none has been with my own ethnic group. But the fact is, seeing people in groups with their own ethnicity is still more common than seeing inter-ethnic groups on the street. And that is a failure of "diversity".

I'm all for inter-cultural discourse. In fact, I would love to have discussions about Western history, Chinese aesthetics, Indian philosophy, and etc, but I don't see much opportunity for any of this, because these communities seem more interested in closing themselves off and having a separate identity.

Your comments here are worth repeating.

When we talk about multi-culturalism, which in and of itself is actually distinct from immigration policy, we should be explicit about what it means. Multi-culturalism is a bargain to allow one to keep his culture while immersed in Canadian society. The problem is that leads to the promotion of the balkanization of our canadian communities into their ethnic sub-components, which the naive beleive will end up with the whole greater than the some of its parts.

The problem with associating immigration with multi-culturalism is this...the people selected to live in this multi-cultural polyglot hodgepodge, mostly arrive here from places with mostly ethnically homogenous societies where interaction with other races was limited, and racism and stereotypes are cultural norms. That's not to say it doesn't work in their part of the world. But what happens when you have arabs in Canada moving into a jewish area, or Japanese into a Chinese area. These are people that have sadly failed to reconcile for half a millenia, yet somehow multi-culturalism assumes that all will be fine.

It won't. We will start to see problems emerge as the population increases in Canada and our urban areas get denser and heretofore separated ethnic groups begin competing for resources and political attention.

The only way to prevent that is to say that certain things are wrong. It is wrong for Arabs to hate Jews for the sheer fact that they are jewish. It is definitely wrong to beat or murder your daughter because she doesn't dress like the girls back home in Pakistan. etc.

The problem is that we attack these issues from the legal perspective. We say, oh they should conform to our laws and everything will be fine. This is lowest common denominator of social order and interaction. It does not aim to foster community and social interaction, it aims to foster tolerance....as in we can stand each other, but we shouldn't really be friends. What we should be doing is attacking these base cultural attitudes, that don't fit our western social norms. As in you can dress how you want, we don't expect you to lift up your veil. But likewise, here in Canada, your daughter can dress how she wants even if her wardrobe includes applebottom jeans or punk rags.

Now let's talk about immigration. Immigration policies are supposed to select the best candidates for migration who have the most potential for success in Canada. Our system doesn't do too bad at certain aspects of this policy. For example, we do a great job at picking migrants who have useful skills and education that will allow them to be economically successful. Where we are behind is finding measures that will ensure they will be socially successful...as in fit in, feel comfortable, be accepted and be happy in Canada. Now these are of course, more challenging to define. But there are certain things we should probably consider....do we want a rabid conservative muslim who probably doesn't like western society and its freedoms (particularly our sexual freedoms) from moving here just because he has a PhD or MD? How would that person react to seeing a gay couple on the subway? Or how about an evangelical christian that feels its his mission to save the hindu souls that live in scarborough? Telling them that they are going to go to hell is not going to endear him to his community (true story). Or NE Asian migrants who each believe they are from the superior race....

Developing social selection criteria is one thing. The other is to inform potential migrants of our norms and cultural values before they migrate. Might be a good idea to tell that conservative muslim kashmiri that in canada, we let our daughters wear tight clothes and our sons can have full rights if they turn out to be gay. By informing them, perhaps they can choose if they are right for us. As it stands, the process does nothing for dis-selecting social misfits. It's is purely a process to identify successful economic migrants. And at the end of the day if money is the only value that binds, how much will we mean to each other when all is said and done?
 
I think Dichotomy's problem is that he embodies the latent homosexuality of every David Clayton-Thomas-voiced meat-eating Conservative-voting SUV dad bundled up in a non-latent homosexual male. Like, he's just so *bursting* with raging beet-red Y-chromosome-cubed closed-circle testosterone upon testosterone that if he was forced into cunnilingus, he'd literally explode like Sunrise Petroleum

Isn't this sorta crossing the line of personal attacks on other forum members? Not particularly egregious, but it seems to me that mods should be held to a higher standard.
 
I don't know if Dichotomy is a racist (honestly, who the hell knows on the internet?) and I doubt anybody here has not had the same thoughts about the current state of multi-culturalism? Do I agree with him out and out? No. Do I think he is an idiot? Yes. But racist? Come on. That is the worst trick in the book to shutdown debate.

I do not call people "racist" lightly. But Dichotomy is, and very obviously so. His entire take on the immigration system stems from a deep disdain for anyone who doesn't share his heritage. The way he describes those from others countries is a clear giveaway:

"It is all boo-hoo and such that we North Americans enslaved generations of Africans and dragged them here against their will. Well, get over it, I say. Be thankful you are here on these shores and have any opportunity to better yourselves. Things could be far worse: you could be festering in a grass hut, playing with camel dung along with a few hundred million of your distant cousins in Africa."
How could anyone find this acceptable? This is just one quote. He has difficulty discussing anyone from any other non-white country without putting them down, even so far as to blame the current state of public transit on immigrants ("the other 50%") And that's just this thread...he regularly makes such comments all over the site.

So, you may buy his stories of having an African boyfriend, etc. as justification for the trash he spews, but I think it's quite obvious he has issues with people of colour.
 

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