With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

[AlvinofDiaspar]

theowne:

I still believe, personally, that certain groups are inheriting the divisiveness for their communities and that multiculturalism will ensure that it will always exist...

I think you're underestimating the ability of divisiveness to exist and overestimating the ability of multiculturalism, by itself, to foil or promote it. The US have a policy of assimilation (ditto Australia) and yet some of the ugliest examples of discrimination and ethnic conflict en masse occured in both polity.

Don't forget there are many gradations of Multiculturalism - some argue that what we promote here in Canada is superficial multiculturalism and not really about dramatic differences in values, and that our immigration policies is biased towards those who are by-and-large "Westernized". Personally, I don't have a problem with that - and I draw the line in the legal arena - one country, one law. No thanks to Sharia and the like.

AoD

 

[afransen]

In continuation of the earlier mentioned "Chinese Engineers Club" at a university...isn't that an example of a discriminatory club? Why is it allowed on campus?

That's an excellent question.

Don't get me started on ethnic clubs... It was one of my pet peeves about the University of Waterloo club system. A list of UW clubs, ethnically focused ones bolded. You might also notice the depressing number of religious clubs.

* Aboriginal Students Association
* African Students Association
* Ahmadiyya Muslim Students' Association
* Armenian Students Association
* Asian Christian Fellowship
* Asian F.O.C.U.S.
* Association of Caribbean Students
* Athletes In Action
* Atheists, Agnostics, and Freethinkers of Waterloo
* Bangladeshi Students' Association
* Bridge Club
* Buddha's Light Community
* Campus Association of Baha'i Studies
* Campus Crusade for Cheese
* Campus For Christ
* Canadian Asian Students Association
* CFC Youth for Christ
* Chess Club
* Chinese Christian Fellowship
* Chinese Debating Club
* Chinese Drama Club
* Chinese Students Association
* Circle K Club
* Club for Undergraduate Bioengineers
* Club That Really Likes Anime
* Christians on Campus
* Debate Society
* Entrepreneurs Association of the University of Waterloo
* Engineers Without Borders
* Falun Gong Club
* Fraternity & Sorority Awareness
* Foreign Affairs Society
* Friends of Lebanon
* Hindu Students Association
* Healthy Active Promotion Network
* Infinite Circle
* Iranian Students' Association
* Islamic Information Center of the University of Waterloo
* Jewish Students' Association
* Journalists for Human Rights
* Konnichiwa Japan
* Korean Christian Fellowship
* Latin American Student Association
* Mandarin Students' Union
* Muslim Students' Association
* Navigators
* N.O.W
* Pakistani Students' Association
* Photography Club
* Polish Students' Association
* Quiz Bowl
* Romanian Students' Association
* Russian Students' Association
* Sai Baba Group
* Serbian Students' Association
* SGI Waterloo
* Sikh Students' Association
* Singaporean & Malaysian Students' Association
* Smiling Over Sickness
* Society for the Study of Modern Visual Culture
* SOFIA-AI
* South Asian Students' Association
* Students for Palestinian Rights
* Students for Life
* Swing and Dance Social Club
* Tactical Robotics Club
* Taiwanese Students' Association
* The Water Hole
* UW Best Buddies
* Ukranian Students' Klub
* University Association of New Democrats
* UW Breakers
* UW COMPASS Catholic Fellowship
* UW Conservative Party Campus Association
* UW Dance Pak
* UW Dex
* UW DJ Club
* UWDrive
* UW e-Sports Club
* UW Equestrian Club
* UW Euchre Club
* UW Field Naturalists Club
* UW Filipino Association
* UW Forum for Independent Thought
* UW Game Development Club
* UW Gamers Club
* UW Genocide Action Group
* UW Global Economic Alliance
* UW Go Club
* UW Hip Hop Club
* UW Indian Connection
* UW International Health Development Association
* UW Music
* UW Orthodox Christian Fellowship
* UW Poker Club
* UW Pre-Law Club
* UW Pre-Med Club
* UW Pre-Optometry Club
* UW Rotaract Club
* UW Rover Crew
* UW Toastmasters
* UW Tutors
* UW Tzu Chi Buddhist Relief Organization
* UW Unite for Sight
* UW Greens
* UW Vegetarians
* UW Website Designers
* Vietnamese Students' Association
* Waterloo Chinese Catholic Community
* Waterloo Christian Fellowship
* Waterloo Dimensions
* Waterloo Ismaili Students Association
* Waterloo Professional Association of Students
* Waterloo Science Fiction Club
* Waterloo Space Society
* Waterloo Tamil Students Association
* Waterloo University Bible Fellowship
* Waterloo Wargaming Society
* Waterloo Ergonomics and Human Factors


Btw, one of these clubs had members that were allegedly involved in terrorist activity. 10 points to anyone can guess which. Hint: it's bolded...

 

[syn]

I don't see anything wrong with ethnic clubs. They're only discriminatory if membership is limited to a certain race or races. Not only have I never found that as a condition of membership, it simply isn't allowed.

Those clubs can be great ways to experience other cultures.

 

[theowne]

I don't see anything wrong with ethnic clubs. They're only discriminatory if membership is limited to a certain race or races.

Just because it isn't written in stone that it's limited doesn't mean it isn't discriminatory.

Do you think that if a black guy walks into the Persian Students Association everything is going to be perfectly fine?

Ethnic clubs encourage racial fragmentation on campuses....

Furthermore, why is there a Chinese debating club? There is already a debating club for people who want to debate. The Chinese debating club seems to have one purpose - we like to debate, but we only want to interact with Chinese people. We like debating, but we only want to be around Chinese people. It baffle, and almost angers me that such things are allowed to exist. It seems to me that a common love for debating would be something to draw people together, yet people are allowed to once again put up borders to ensure that doesn't happen. Why stop there? How about a Muslim Chess Club or a White Web Designer club? This is the next generation, and it seems the divisions are already set in place.

The funny thing is, if you replace a lot of these ethnic terms with "White", it reveals how discriminatory they really are. Compare your reaction to this, "White Students Association". "White Debating Society". "White Christian Fellowship". Suddenly it doesn't seem so harmless, does it?

I know what you're going to say: "White is a skin color/ethnic term, while Tamil or Chinese are national/linguistic ones". Well, look at the presence of the "Asian Christian Foundation" and the "South Asian Students Club".

That Konnichiwa Japan club is the only example of what syn seems to think all clubs are, which is promoting interest in other cultures.

 

[syn]

Just because it isn't written in stone that it's limited doesn't mean it isn't discriminatory.

Do you think that if a black guy walks into the Persian Students Association everything is going to be perfectly fine?

Based on what?

I've seen all kinds of people join all kinds of clubs. Race is only an issue if you want to make it one.

I was pretty involved with campus groups and for the most part people limited themselves.

Ethnic clubs encourage racial fragmentation on campuses....

Furthermore, why is there a Chinese debating club? There is already a debating club for people who want to debate. The Chinese debating club seems to have one purpose - we like to debate, but we only want to interact with Chinese people. We like debating, but we only want to be around Chinese people. It baffle, and almost angers me that such things are allowed to exist. It seems to me that a common love for debating would be something to draw people together, yet people are allowed to once again put up borders to ensure that doesn't happen. Why stop there? How about a Muslim Chess Club or a White Web Designer club? This is the next generation, and it seems the divisions are already set in place.

That Konnichiwa Japan club is the only example of what syn seems to think all clubs are, which is promoting interest in other cultures.

I disagree. Ethnic clubs give a lot of people an opportunity to celebrate their background and it gives others a chance to experience it. They can also act as a support system for foreign students. Such groups are not about catering to a specific group of people, they exist to teach others about another culture.

I've found that the people who object most to such groups are the same ones who have really made no attempt to join them.

Now, there are certainly those groups that seem very insular. There was a Chinese one on UofT (I believe it was the Chinese Engineering one) that seemed to only have recent arrivals from Asia. However, I have to admit that I made no attempt to ever join the group or communicate with them, so judging them as a closed minded group isn't exactly fair.

I'd also say such groups formed a very small minority. Most ethnic clubs were comprised of Canadian born and/or raised members who were willing to accommodate anyone.

Regarding the Chinese Debating Club...maybe they debated issues relevant to China and that part of the world? How many of their meetings did you attend? A Muslim Chess Club or a White Web Designer club wouldn't be good analogies since there's no such thing as Muslim Chess or White Web Sites.

 

[afransen]

I think you'll find that the language of discourse in most Chinese clubs, for instance, is cantonese or mandarin. Hard for someone curious about the culture to break into that.

I doubly disagree with something like a Chinese Debate Club.

Frankly, ethnic clubs are not about experiencing other cultures (that is a platitude). They are pretty much exclusively about insulating oneself with the university community as a whole by forming a social network with those of a similar ethnic/religious/racial background as oneself.

 

[lordmandeep]

so what they made a group...


How does it hurt you personally.

Really your the type who should care less what people think or do...

 

[syn]

Frankly, ethnic clubs are not about experiencing other cultures (that is a platitude). They are pretty much exclusively about insulating oneself with the university community as a whole by forming a social network with those of a similar ethnic/religious/racial background as oneself.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to meet people who share a similar background.

I've participated in ethnic clubs for Caribbeans, Indians, Spanish and Filipinos and never felt excluded from any of them.

They're as exclusive or inclusive as you want them to be, for the most part.

 

[theowne]

so what they made a group...


How does it hurt you personally.

Really your the type who should care less what people think or do...

You seem to be missing the point entirely.

It has very little to do with individually hurting people "personally", and more to do with a pattern across the city and parts of the country that I, and many others, can see no good coming from.

For all the hooplah about Toronto's diversity, what's the point if people just come here and then barricade themselves into a corner with their "own kind"?

 

[lordmandeep]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to meet people who share a similar background.

true, if I want to meet my fellow compatriots, so what?

 

[afransen]

They can also act as a support system for foreign students. Such groups are not about catering to a specific group of people, they exist to teach others about another culture.

Exchange/international students, ideally, should be coming here to experience Canada. I think ethnic clubs are a crutch that stifles their experience.

As for the second point: that is staggeringly untrue. These clubs tend to be incredibly homogenous.

I've found that the people who object most to such groups are the same ones who have really made no attempt to join them.

I like to meet people from all kinds of backgrounds. Why should I have to join each ethnic club in order to meet these people? Can't we meet on some kind of common ground? If I made, in my case, a Dutch Catholic Student Association, could I reasonably expect people from different backgrounds to come to me?

A Muslim Chess Club or a White Web Designer club wouldn't be good analogies since there's no such thing as Muslim Chess or White Web Sites.

But there is a special, chinese kind of debate? One that is simply incompatible with the existing, non-ethnically charged Debate Club?

 

[syn]

You seem to be missing the point entirely.

It has very little to do with individually hurting people "personally", and more to do with a pattern across the city and parts of the country that I, and many others, can see no good coming from.

For all the hooplah about Toronto's diversity, what's the point if people just come here and then barricade themselves into a corner with their "own kind"?

You will always have people who do that. It's inevitable. It's only natural that new immigrants will want to settle with people who immigrated in the past that can share their experiences.

In this city it's almost impossible to live your life without interacting with people from other races. You really have no choice.

 

[afransen]

so what they made a group...


How does it hurt you personally.

Really your the type who should care less what people think or do...

What type is that?

 

[syn]

Exchange/international students, ideally, should be coming here to experience Canada. I think ethnic clubs are a crutch that stifles their experience.

This happens in every country. You can find "Canadian" bars in Asia where a lot of Canadian citizens living overseas will get together to watch a hockey game or meet fellow Canadians to share their experiences.

Why should it be a problem for foreigners here to do the same?

As for the second point: that is staggeringly untrue. These clubs tend to be incredibly homogenous.

So? The point is that anyone can join. They also hold on-campus events that anyone can attend.

What I've found is that a lot of people are far less interested in learning about other cultures than we'd like to believe.

I could've easily not joined the groups I did and then made the same claim. Unfortunately most people don't care to be that involved and take advantages of the opportunities afforded to them.

I like to meet people from all kinds of backgrounds. Why should I have to join each ethnic club in order to meet these people? Can't we meet on some kind of common ground? If I made, in my case, a Dutch Catholic Student Association, could I reasonably expect people from different backgrounds to come to me?

You don't have to. Joining an ethnic club is just one way to do it. It's not just about meeting people from other ethnicities either, but experiencing culture.

I think the real question is why we have to limit the ways in which we interact with each other?

But there is a special, chinese kind of debate? One that is simply incompatible with the existing, non-ethnically charged Debate Club?

I have no idea, it was just a thought. If you're debating Chinese issues then the Chinese Debating Club would seem an obvious name.

I know exactly what you guys mean though. There are certainly some clubs like that, but they're quite small and usually cater to the newest of new arrivals. Clubs that inward looking bother me as well.

 

[afransen]

Students, at least those at UW, tended to have fairly little time available to devote to extracurriculars. Thus, many that gravitate toward ethnic rather general interest clubs tend not to meet as many people outside their ethnic group. This is the problem I have with ethnic clubs: they ghettoize minorities and I think that is something that would be better avoided.

I will admit though, I found the religious groups worse as far as insulating people from one another.

What I always found so puzzling about these organizations is that they were often being celebrated as evidence of 'Diversity'--I never got the impression that hanging out with people as similar to oneself in terms of race, ethnicity and religion could be construed as enhancing diversity.