Why the Hate for Mississauga?

[scarberiankhatru]

And this is any better, or more respectful, than my suggestion to carve a main street out of the tract housing north of Cooksville station??

Honestly, I can't see why "plow it down and start over" is a sin when I say it, but peachy when you do.

There can't be a downtown of any consequence until Square One is gone. Mississauga is building their quaint main street right next to Square One and it's only a matter of time before either the mall turns inside out or becomes a PATH-esque retail concourse underneath another layer of city. They're not proposing to demolish perfectly fine residential streets just for the hell of it because they're lined with icky suburban tract housing and pretend the arterial a block over isn't lined with tons of towers that need to be served by transit and shouldn't be infilled with whatever's appropriate to infill their lawns with. Maybe they would if Hazel was some bizarro Robert Moses attempting to make the city look as not-suburban as possible while completely ignoring how the city is actually used.

 

[kettal]

Actually, my reasoning was that Cooksville station needs to become a node, and attached to the city centre, via a corridor that is pedestrian, bike, and transit friendly, which we have already decided Hurontario does not meet these requirements. Such a new corridor is impossible when there is quiet, low density residential in the way. It might be a problem for the 50 or so people who have to be relocated, I admit.

But your calling for the demolition of a mall which is the livelihood and income for literally hundreds of people, is much more sensitive and noble. Your criticisms are so much more righteous than my evil ideas.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Why, yes, they are! It may even be done as simply as taking the roof off the mall.

 

[doady]

I must say, I'm not sure how bus usage is an indication of pedestrian-friendliness. Pedestrians are people WALKING
on the street, not standing waiting for transit to pick them up, right?

How exactly do you think people are able to wait for buses? Do they just magically fly to the bus stop or use some sort of teleportation device?

 

[doady]

Man, it will take me forever to go through all these posts...

Wait, you call this one of the most pedestrian friendly streets in the whole city? That's when you know your city's got problems.

No, this is not a picture from an industrial factory zone, this is the "main street" in the heart of the "city centre".

First of all, the so-called city centre has not been developed yet, and that stretch of Hurontario is undeveloped also (see the greenfields at the sides?). It is also probably the single worst stretch of Hurontario, and even you should know already the Hurontario is very diverse corridor developed over several distinct periods. So trying to generalize the whole corridor based on this small part makes no sense. Just go a few km south of that pic and you will already see a different urban form.

Don't kid yourself. This is no main street,

Which I guess is why they are doing the Hurontario-Main Corridor Study and possibly building the Hurontario LRT.

it's a highway bypass.

People cannot walk along highways and people can't walk across highways. People can walk along Hurontario and people can walk across Hurontario. That is a huge difference just right there. And surely even you can appreciate the implications of this difference.

Do you really think that an at-grade LRT down the middle of Hurontario would be no different than an at-grade LRT down the middle of the 401? I hope not.

 

[doady]

Actually, my reasoning was that Cooksville station needs to become a node, and attached to the city centre, via a corridor that is pedestrian, bike, and transit friendly, which we have already decided Hurontario does not meet these requirements.

How does it not meet these requirements? What does that mean exactly? Are you talking the current situation or the future or both?

It is funny, the busiest and most profitable local transit corridor in the 905, reliant completely on pedestrian access, being called too pedestrian and transit unfriendly for something as simple connecting two nodes.

If all you want to do is connect two nodes, you don't need a corridor that is pedestrian and bike friendly. After all, the Milton line itself would not satisfy that requirement either, which would make the whole idea of turning Cooksville into a node pointless.

Cooksville is already a major node anyways. If you knew anything about the Hurontario corridor, you'd know that already.

 

[kettal]

Regardless of how much you praise Hurontario's success as a bus route, that doesn't change the fact that very few people are using it to get on or off in the empty fields north of Cooksville station.

To transform Hurontario in this section, and basically any point from Cooksville station, north to the 403 interchange, and the nearby 401 interchange and 407 interchange would be a very very difficult task.

Commerce and pedestrian streets are a lot better suited for a road which is not used by thousands of trucks and commuters as a bypass between multiple freeways. That's what Hurontario's main function is in this stretch, and it's due to the fact that it is the one connection to so many limited-access freeways in the area.

For these reasons, Hurontario itself is highly unlikely to meet the needs of connecting MCC to the GO station in a pedestrian friendly manner.

Why should Cooksville station be connected to MCC in a pedestrian friendly manner? That's like asking why Union Station should be a pleasant walk from downtown Toronto.

 

[kettal]

People cannot walk along highways and people can't walk across highways. People can walk along Hurontario and people can walk across Hurontario. That is a huge difference just right there. And surely even you can appreciate the implications of this difference.

Do you even know what a highway is?

I have legally walked on Highway 11, which is a semi-freeway style highway. Doesn't make it into any less of a highway.

Do you really think that an at-grade LRT down the middle of Hurontario would be no different than an at-grade LRT down the middle of the 401? I hope not.

Serving an area which is primarily a freeway connection for automobiles with LRT, is a less desirable outcome than to have a nearby alternate corridor which does not serve such a primary function.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If Cooksville is to be improved, improve Hurontario. That's the only real option. Carving a totally new main street through existing residential areas makes absolutely no sense when Hurontario's right there waiting to be spruced up and infilled, particularly if one believes that we've lost the ability to build new main streets (which kettal does). Building something from scratch will not work as well as building upon something with decent bones, like Hurontario. The solution is mindnumbingly obvious...there's a wide street being criticized for lack of things like better transit and bike lanes. So add a transit ROW and bike lanes and you'll have room left over for landscaping. Duh. Redevelop properties over time, convert ground floor condo space to retail, etc.

 

[kettal]

If Cooksville is to be improved, improve Hurontario. That's the only real option. Carving a totally new main street through existing residential areas makes absolutely no sense when Hurontario's right there waiting to be spruced up and infilled, particularly if one believes that we've lost the ability to build new main streets (which kettal does). Building something from scratch will not work as well as building upon something with decent bones, like Hurontario. The solution is mindnumbingly obvious...there's a wide street being criticized for lack of things like better transit and bike lanes. So add a transit ROW and bike lanes and you'll have room left over for landscaping. Duh. Redevelop properties over time, convert ground floor condo space to retail, etc.

Bike lanes, pedestrian usage, will be a problem at the freeway intechange, unless the 403 interchange is significantly altered. If you don't know why this is, then you have never been a pedestrian or a cyclist at such a highway interchange. Ideally there should be a street which has no interchange to the 403 that will be used for local traffic, pedestrians, and cyclists.

You yourself have endorsed the building of an alternate street to the west of Hurontario to be used as a main street.

The way Hurontario is used now is primarily as a way to get from one freeway to another. or at the very least, as a quick way to get onto a freeway. I'm sure you understand why this conflicts with any grand scheme to make it into a multi-modal urban corridor.

 

[nfitz]

Man, it will take me forever to go through all these posts....

Then don't ... it's not exactly a very serious thread!

People cannot walk along highways and people can't walk across highways.

By definition any city street is a highway. In Toronto, Bay Street is a highway; York Street is a highway. One can both walk along and across these highways.

Even in rural towns, there are sidewalks along, and pedestrian crossing across numbered provincial highways. So I don't see what you mean, even in the more traditional sense.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Bike lanes, pedestrian usage, will be a problem at the freeway intechange, unless the 403 interchange is significantly altered. If you don't know why this is, then you have never been a pedestrian or a cyclist at such a highway interchange. Ideally there should be a street which has no interchange to the 403 that will be used for local traffic, pedestrians, and cyclists.

You yourself have endorsed the building of an alternate street to the west of Hurontario to be used as a main street.

The way Hurontario is used now is primarily as a way to get from one freeway to another. or at the very least, as a quick way to get onto a freeway. I'm sure you understand why this conflicts with any grand scheme to make it into a multi-modal urban corridor.

You do know that the Hurontario/403 interchange is not in Cooksville, right? Yonge gets kind of dicey near Lakeshore but the Hurontario/403/Rathburn interchange is farther from Burnhamthorpe - let alone Cooksville - than Yonge & Lakeshore is from Yonge & King. One doesn't really have any effect on the other.

Actually, I endorsed ripping the roof off Square One (albeit, with more colourful language) instead of trying to build a cute little retail street immediately next to Square One - which is what Mississauga is thinking of doing. Stores are necessary, an enclosed mall isn't. Don Mills Centre hasn't turned out that great but the intentions are good and other malls/developers/planners can learn a lot about what to do or not do. Square One would be a very different project, anyway, being larger and having two storeys.

Improve what you have...it's guaranteed to be better than starting from scratch. Why endorse starting from scratch when you think it can't work? Why would starting from scratch work here when it's failed pretty much everywhere else and might still fail next to Square One? The off-ramps on Hurontario near the 403 are not intended to be a main street any more than the ramps to the 401 on Yonge are intended to be downtown North York or the Gardiner ramps are intended to be the focus of Toronto. Who cares about the 403 interchange? It's not even that bad...real people aren't so spleeny that they cease to function when they stray more than 100m from quaintness.

Hurontario between Marilyn and Cooksville, though...there's some real potential. Toronto's towers in the park are already being redeveloped and Mississauga's will, too, eventually. An urban area as large as central Mississauga can handle multiple 'main streets,' anyway, just as Toronto has Yonge, Queen, King, Bloor, University, etc.

No, Hurontario is not used primarily to get from one freeway to another. Maybe, just maybe, the many stores, jobs and people living along Hurontario generate some trips every day.

 

[kettal]

Actually, I endorsed ripping the roof off Square One (albeit, with more colourful language) instead of trying to build a cute little retail street immediately next to Square One - which is what Mississauga is thinking of doing. Stores are necessary, an enclosed mall isn't. Don Mills Centre hasn't turned out that great but the intentions are good and other malls/developers/planners can learn a lot about what to do or not do. Square One would be a very different project, anyway, being larger and having two storeys.

I apologise, you didn't expicitly endorse it, your quote was as follows:
"Mississauga actually knows that this is not a main street, which is why they're building a new one farther west."

Improve what you have...it's guaranteed to be better than starting from scratch. Why endorse starting from scratch when you think it can't work? Why would starting from scratch work here when it's failed pretty much everywhere else and might still fail next to Square One?

It's certainly possible to transform Hurontario, but I consider that the process would be more difficult, and the outcome less desirable, than starting from scratch. Let's take your "improve what you got" quote to the test: should we turn the 401 through Toronto into a nice main street. Possible? maybe. But sometimes "improving on what you got" is not the best option.

The off-ramps on Hurontario near the 403 are not intended to be a main street any more than the ramps to the 401 on Yonge are intended to be downtown North York or the Gardiner ramps are intended to be the focus of Toronto. Who cares about the 403 interchange? It's not even that bad...real people aren't so spleeny that they cease to function when they stray more than 100m from quaintness.

The scar on my chin, dental surgery, and the two weeks stuck in bed, from hitting the curb has taught me how safe it is to bike across a freeway interchange. I still consider myself more brave than the average person when it comes to biking. Many will shiver at the thought of biking on-street along Harbord. A freeway interchange is widely considered a "no fucking way" scenario, and for good reason.

No, Hurontario is not used primarily to get from one freeway to another. Maybe, just maybe, the many stores, jobs and people living along Hurontario generate some trips every day.

Most vehicles who are on Hurontario at any given time have used a freeway as part of their journey. It's just the way it is, due to the land uses, nearby industries, and commute patterns. Yes, some are local trips, but not the majority.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I apologise, you didn't expicitly endorse it, your quote was as follows:
"Mississauga actually knows that this is not a main street, which is why they're building a new one farther west."

I didn't implicitly endorse it, either. "Carcass" implies the mall wouldn't even be demolished, just opened up.

Yes, Mississauga knows that the 403 interchange is not their main street, nor will it become one, nor is it desirable to try to force it. To counter the influence/gravity of Square One, they're gonna to create some cute retail quaintness next to Square One (success = dubious) instead of modifying Square One (higher chance of success).

It's certainly possible to transform Hurontario, but I consider that the process would be more difficult, and the outcome less desirable, than starting from scratch. Let's take your "improve what you got" quote to the test: should we turn the 401 through Toronto into a nice main street. Possible? maybe. But sometimes "improving on what you got" is not the best option.

The 403 interchange is irrelevant, as is your 401 test. Hurontario is not the 401. All the stuff around Square One, including the Rathburn interchange, is what happens when you start from scratch. It's not even finished and you expect the same city to magically whip up a quaint little village next door?

The scar on my chin, dental surgery, and the two weeks stuck in bed, from hitting the curb has taught me how safe it is to bike across a freeway interchange. I still consider myself more brave than the average person when it comes to biking. Many will shiver at the thought of biking on-street along Harbord. A freeway interchange is widely considered a "no fucking way" scenario, and for good reason.

Who ever said pedestrian friendly and cyclist friendly were the same thing? This does explain your preoccupation with the highway interchange, with reducing all of Hurontario to one off-ramp, but remember that curbs tend to exist everywhere.

Most vehicles who are on Hurontario at any given time have used a freeway as part of their journey. It's just the way it is, due to the land uses, nearby industries, and commute patterns. Yes, some are local trips, but not the majority.

You said it's a conduit between two highways, and even then you're just assuming it is. Yeah, who cares about the other 95+% of local trips when a tiny, tiny fraction can be highlighted? Gee, maybe people are travelling along Hurontario because they're going somewhere along Hurontario. Why on earth would you run the LRT line anywhere other than where people are coming from and going to?

 

[kettal]

All the stuff around Square One, including the Rathburn interchange, is what happens when you start from scratch. It's not even finished and you expect the same city to magically whip up a quaint little village next door?

The area around square one was designed by the same great minds who decided a mall near a highway was a good place to declare a new downtown, and a city council who seemed to believe that the future of transportation would be 100% car centric.