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Where is "downtown Toronto"?

Yonge from St. Clair to Eglington has what 5-8 million sq. ft. of office space along with more retail space? North York has at least 10 million sq. ft of office space along with more retail space.

Are those numbers supposed to impress me?

Office Space at First Canadian Place: 2.7 million sq ft.
Office Space at Willis Tower Chicago: 4.6 million sq ft

So your whole "midtown" office space combined is only 1 or 2 big towers . It is more like the capacity of two buildings, not a "mid-TOWN" per se. Suddenly not that impressive any more, are they?
 
Are those numbers supposed to impress me?

Office Space at First Canadian Place: 2.7 million sq ft.
Office Space at Willis Tower Chicago: 4.6 million sq ft

So your whole "midtown" office space combined is only 1 or 2 big towers . It is more like the capacity of two buildings, not a "mid-TOWN" per se. Suddenly not that impressive any more, are they?

Don't take this the wrong way but I'm not out to impress anyone (in any context) and will likely never do so in my life. :)

Next, I know many stats on office buildings and office space and I know that the amount of office space is modest in the three nodes, however, they are not insignificant either and your impression that an area can only qualify as mid/uptown if it has XXX sq. ft. of office space doesn't hold any water. It is the geographical and overall context that you need to consider (as has been mentioned already in prior posts).

Like I've said before, why does there have to be a minimum criteria for an area to be midtown/uptown? You can't look at it in isolation like that; it should be looked at in the context of the metro area.

If you feel that Toronto has a small downtown and no midtown or uptown areas, then that's fine...no one is against your opinion. I'm just trying to tell you what I feel is uptown/midtown and why I choose the nodes that I did.

One more thing (and I mean this in a neutral way): You seem to criticize Toronto more than is necessary; if you look at Anglo-Saxon cities around Toronto's size (city and GTA-wise) all around the world, which cities do you feel are superior in their layout, and from what you imply, have a worthy midtown/uptown, etc.?
 
Even using the a pretty "conservative" definition of downtown (which is more helpful for comparative purposes) Toronto does have the 3rd largest downtown in North America.
 
Don't take this the wrong way but I'm not out to impress anyone (in any context) and will likely never do so in my life. :)

Next, I know many stats on office buildings and office space and I know that the amount of office space is modest in the three nodes, however, they are not insignificant either and your impression that an area can only qualify as mid/uptown if it has XXX sq. ft. of office space doesn't hold any water. It is the geographical and overall context that you need to consider (as has been mentioned already in prior posts).

Like I've said before, why does there have to be a minimum criteria for an area to be midtown/uptown? You can't look at it in isolation like that; it should be looked at in the context of the metro area.

If you feel that Toronto has a small downtown and no midtown or uptown areas, then that's fine...no one is against your opinion. I'm just trying to tell you what I feel is uptown/midtown and why I choose the nodes that I did.

One more thing (and I mean this in a neutral way): You seem to criticize Toronto more than is necessary; if you look at Anglo-Saxon cities around Toronto's size (city and GTA-wise) all around the world, which cities do you feel are superior in their layout, and from what you imply, have a worthy midtown/uptown, etc.?

I criticize because there are problems, and some people choose to pretend they don't exist and everything is fine as it is, and choose to look at the good things. I am aware of the bright side of Toronto myself. I just don't talk about it that much since most others did enough of that.

I agree with you this whole midtown thing is more about perception than stats. Then it depends on personal experience. The fact is, Toronto is the smallest city I have lived in the past 20 years, which is why I seem to have different standard from say someone from other parts of Canada. My mother visited me and also mentioned Toronto is a lot smaller and quieter than she expected, and Vancouver in her mind is "a small city with little urban vibe" (it has half the population the city I am from). Guess it is all relative.

Ok, my standard for a midtown is: standing at the intersection of Yonge/St Clair, for example, you walk for 10 minutes/800-1000m in each direction, you find retail store/restaurants/entertainment/bookstores/cafe etc practically everywhere. It doesn't have to be exclusively commercial, mixed use is even better, but it CANT be all single family house or low rise apartment 3 minutes away from the business intersection, which is the case for Yonge/St Clair and Yonge/Eglington. My definition of a midtown is not about one single street. It is about a square or rectangular. One busy street plus a couple of intersections are not "midtown".

I don't know why I need to limit my vision to the anglo-saxon cities, which is a very small part of the world. When you are part of the world, you are judged by global standard, not anglo-saxon or "north-american" standards. I hate it when people say "Toronto is (something nice) in North American standards". It is like saying "I am tall in my family's standard".
 
I bring up Anglo-Saxon 'standards' because Toronto's growth was for the most part based on Anglo-Saxon idealogies and people (before it became pan-European and then of course, global). There's nothing wrong with single family homes just minutes away from major streets because that is the way many cities in the 'new world' countries have developed. It is the preference of many (past and present) to live in low rise dwellings (along with the fact that it's possible for many to afford to do so) that has resulted in so many single family dwellings everywhere. Another interesting point is that Toronto is one of the most multi-family housing oriented cities in North America (or even new world countries) so at least Toronto is heading in the right direction (i.e. more mid- and high-rise towers and less low-rise dwellings as a proportion of total dwellings).

Other places, especially East Asia, are more dense because that's the only way to go for them. If they had an option to spread and sprawl, they would do so as well (perhaps not as much as the new world countries).

Another note, I'm assuming you're East Asian? Many East Asians seem to be very status-oriented and materialistic (not being racist just generalizing for the purposes of proving a point) and it's this demographic more than any other, i bet, that prefers big houses and flashy cars, designer purses, etc. and therefore the emphasis/preference of single dwellings will always remain in the new world countries from people around the globe. Look at Richmond BC; don't they have massive houses (single family) that are mostly owned by East Asians....obviously there's a reason they're choosing to leave the full-of-life East Asian cities and settle in small-town Vancouver....see what I mean?

new world = US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, by the way.

Finally, you've said multiple times in various posts on various threads that where you're from, everything is big, dense, etc. and yes, that is true of East Asian cities, however, just like how you tell many forumers here that they're not very open-minded as they're supposedly too North-America centric, you also are guilty of that, because you are too East-Asia centric (in terms of assuming North-American cities, barring NewYork, will be buzzing with highrises and 24 hour activity everywhere).

For many, the supposedly quiet and boring small-city feel that you seem to imply, is a positive (in that many like the fact that Toronto can offer quiet low-rise areas a short distance away from bustling streets, etc.). :)

Take a step back and look at the history, initial demographics and the way of thinking through most of the 20th century and you'll see why Toronto and other new world cities look the way they do. :)
 
I think in order to be called "downtown" or "midtown", you need to have a relatively large commercial/office area. I myself don't even think Yonge/St Clair/Eglington are ready to be called "Midtown" yet. I mean, midtown is a town, not part of one street.
.

You are probably right. Even though I always think of Bloor to Eglinton as midtown - its basically 1 street whether it be St. Clair or Eglinton. Although St. Clair is closer only because you can walk to some attractions, Casa Loma, Spadina House and there is George Brown College, You can even walk to Bloor St. Eglinton a bit too far and it only has restaurants, retail, some commercial. I am not even sure if there is a supermarket there such as Loblaws. The downtown really does have so many things, historical buildings (what remains), City Hall. Queens Park, 2 universities, the lake, etc that it is hard for midtown and especially uptown to ever compete or compare. When i think uptown all I think off are condos.

When I tell people I want to work downtown and they say Bloor and Yonge, I say no. I want to work downtown. It has to be at least Queens St and south.
 
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The downtown really does have so many things, historical buildings (what remains), City Hall. Queens Park ... I want to work downtown. It has to be at least Queens St and south.
Neither City Hall nor Queens Park is south of Queen Street. City Hall is close ... but Queens Park?
 
I did not say Queens Park is south of Queen St. I have worked at College St or south of there my whole life and am aware of where streets and attractions are. Though i said I want to work at Queen or south of there I still believe that Queens Park is downtown. It certainly is not midtown. You can walk from Queens Park to Queen St in 5-7 minutes
 
Downtown is Queen Street and south? Quick, tell everyone we have a subway that's not downtown! The suburbs will rejoice in knowing the Bloor line isn't downtown!
 
kkgg7,

Asian cities are miserably poor, badly maintained, and horrifyingly ugly and unequal.

Look at this:

dan-chung-shanghai-2.png


I would hate to live in a city where people have such crowded lowly living standards. It disgusts me to think that the people who live in that Shanghai building aren't even the poorest in the city.

Hu_Yang_poor.jpg


Terrible. Architecturally speaking, too many buildings literally repeat themselves over and over throughout blocks and blocks of sterility. Looks like a modern version of regent park for the most part. They are so poorly built, too. An earthquake that would barely move things around in Chile or Japan would wipe out most cities in the likes of China and Vietnam.

And the pizza and pasta are atrocious. ATROCIOUS.

Did I mention the lack of beaches and how pathetic that is given it's so close to the sea?

Oh, wait, maybe they are not that bad FOR ASIAN STANDARDS, but since when is that relevant? Compared with Vancouver, Toronto, Sydney, and other places where people have guaranteed sanitary conditions, beautiful natural places minutes away, and where I can find food that I like, asian cities are absolutely atrocious.

P.S. I hate Toronto's suburbs and my father was born in Beijing.
 
Eglinton a bit too far and it only has restaurants, retail, some commercial. I am not even sure if there is a supermarket there such as Loblaws.
What else other than restaurants, retail, and some commercial do you expect for there? and yes, there's a Metro at Yonge, Bayview, and a Sobeys at Mt Pleasant. :p


The downtown really does have so many things, historical buildings (what remains), City Hall. Queens Park, 2 universities, the lake, etc that it is hard for midtown and especially uptown to ever compete or compare. When i think uptown all I think off are condos.
Of course the downtown has the historical buildings, and other government buildings, it's the historical core of Toronto, there's no need to compete/compare with midtown and uptown. As for the uptown Yonge strip being full of condos, sure, but try going there on a Friday or Saturday night.
 
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It's all relative... You tell someone from Milton or Waterloo you live in Downtown Toronto, you tell someone that lives in Toronto you live in Yorkville, or Kingwest, or the Esplanade... Downtown to me is the core financial district, from East of Bluejays way, west of church, and definately SOB!

I remember before leaving to work abroad, Torontonians identified themselves mostly by major intersections... Gerrard and Leslie, King and Bathurst, etc. now, it's become more like NYC, by neighbourhoods etc... It's slightly abnoxious and quite pompous... Maybe because it's the real-estate drive...
 
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The neighbourhoods in downtown Toronto are so drastically different from one another that I think it makes sense to identify yourself with the neighbourhood.

Queen/Spadina and Peter/Adelaide have much much more in common than Queen/Spadina and Grange/Spadina. So it's easier to understand your lifestyle if you say Queen West mainstream vs South Chinatown, in my opinion.
 
Wouldn't it make more sense to abandon the Uptown/Midtown/Downtown terms and use "North End/West End/East End?" The city spreads outwards in those directions--it's not channeled by being on a series of islands, which is what the original terms refer to.

The idea that we have an Uptown is ridiculous.
 

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