Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[TossYourJacket]

Ok so what number do you think this route will get? Come one 513 East Bayfront, it's unused and it's the number I picked for it in my fantasy proposal. Or do we bring back the 514? or do we just change up how the Streetcars are numbered all together?

I've seen 519 tossed around a few times. Personally I'd save that for if we ever put a streetcar back on Church St (since the community centre near Church and Wellesley is the 519, so it just has a nice synergy there).

That said, I hope when we get streetcars going further down Cherry we can change the 504A into a revival of the 514 (with the 504B just becoming the 504). The TTC got the new alignments right when they replaced the 514, but having both routes use the same number was a terrible idea.

 

[nfitz]

RIP bremner line. fully dead with the new streetcar loop

The new loop could in theory expedite it - it certainly takes away the biggest issue - the cost of upgrading the loop.

I don't see there's much point in Waterfront West without having much faster travel times to Strachan. What could kill it though is an Ontario Line expansion to the west.

Though I don't see it going anywhere for decades, other than continuing to safeguard.

 

[hawc]

This is the type of rail they need to bring back to the waterfront.

Roads aren't just for cars, they're for trains!

@drum118 do you remember a time when this was a common sight?

I believe this street running 1957 MLW S-3 painted in Action Red is from the mid 1970s.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

very excited for this project

 

[hawc]

It really is quite amazing how much they've transformed this section of the waterfront in the last 20 years.

20 years ago I had a motorcycle and remember all along the lake here were just empty dusty parking lots that I'd ride around in.

Here's some pictures of my bike in those lots back in 2006.

 

[StreetcarRider]

Back in the 2006 list (still on the Waterfront Toronto website) they had several routes, including extending the 507, and the 514 (a truncated version of this ran from 2016 to 2018 on Cherry Street).

Interesting history but betcha they'll eventually make a new downtown circulator loop King/Spadina/QQ/Cherry to make use of then-existing prioritized infrastructure, avoid congestion at Union, and defer additional investments in the 504 like bigger turning loops at Broadview and Dundas West stations.

 

[nightstreak]

Hopefully this serves as a testing bed for a lawn track on Queens Quay as was originally intended for the streetcar ROW from Spadina to Bay St. It's now been done on the Finch and Eglinton lines so hopefully Waterfront Toronto follows those examples and then later expands it to the western section when the time comes to rebuild that track.

Besides more aesthetically pleasing, it helps with rain water runoff and most importantly, keeps cars out of the ROW, creating more visually defined separation for drivers.

 

[urbanclient]

Hopefully this serves as a testing bed for a lawn track on Queens Quay as was originally intended for the streetcar ROW from Spadina to Bay St. It's now been done on the Finch and Eglinton lines so hopefully Waterfront Toronto follows those examples and then later expands it to the western section when the time comes to rebuild that track.

View attachment 725612

Besides more aesthetically pleasing, it helps with rain water runoff and most importantly, keeps cars out of the ROW, creating more visually defined separation for drivers.

I don't know how this relates to embedded track and switches. I would rather Waterfront not have a grassy median if it means better reliability. Line 6 had issues with switch heaters for embedded tracks, and my expectations are not high for them repeating the same mistake a 3rd time (Ottawa was the 1st time). Most of Eglinton does not have "lawn track".

 

[nfitz]

I don't know how this relates to embedded track and switches. I would rather Waterfront not have a grassy median if it means better reliability. Line 6 had issues with switch heaters for embedded tracks, and my expectations are not high for them repeating the same mistake a 3rd time (Ottawa was the 1st time). Most of Eglinton does not have "lawn track".

As there is no grass as far as I know on Line 6, I don't know how that's an issue.

I could say (though it's not really relevant) that because we put grass on Line 5 and the switches work better than TTC streetcar track and Line 6 that don't have grass, we should put grass on Queen Quay East.

 

[nightstreak]

I don't know how this relates to embedded track and switches. I would rather Waterfront not have a grassy median if it means better reliability. Line 6 had issues with switch heaters for embedded tracks, and my expectations are not high for them repeating the same mistake a 3rd time (Ottawa was the 1st time).

There aren't any switches in the segments that would have been lawned, just straight track. The reason given for cancelling the green track was that emergency services lobbied against having grass because they wanted to use the ROW. It's been a decade and as a daily user of the waterfront, I think I can only remember one time seeing a fire truck in the ROW. They simply don't use it because it's dangerous and impractical, they use Lake Shore Blvd. instead.

Most of Eglinton does not have "lawn track".

Well yeah... most of Eglinton is underground. But in the above ground sections, much of it is green track, with the exceptions being at stations, over bridges, approaching tunnels or switchover sections.

 

[urbanclient]

As there is no grass as far as I know on Line 6, I don't know how that's an issue.

I could say (though it's not really relevant) that because we put grass on Line 5 and the switches work better than TTC streetcar track and Line 6 that don't have grass, we should put grass on Queen Quay East.

You're misunderstanding, Line 5 Eglinton above ground mostly has un-embedded ballastless track, whereas Line 6 FW has embedded track. I thought grass track in general would start as embedded track like Line 6 that then gets grass put on it. My research now shows it's track that starts like Line 5 Eglinton, that then gets soil and grass put on top. Although I still am not 100% sure.

I was worried that the green track would force them to choose the Finch West-like embedded track (that emergency services lobbied for?). Line 6 does not have grass track, to clarify.

See post below for pictures of the different track

Not a scientifically empirically backed explanation but here are some pics of the rails between the Eglinton and Finch LRT. You can see the wheel-rail interface difference with the shine. These are taken at station stops.

Eglinton LRT:

View attachment 723009

View attachment 723014

Finch LRT:

View attachment 723010

View attachment 723011

The wheel profile on the Eglinton LRT seems to be very similar to the profile that the TTC uses for the subway.

 

[nfitz]

You're misunderstanding, Line 5 Eglinton above ground mostly has un-embedded ballastless track, whereas Line 6 FW has embedded track. I thought it was embedded track like Line 6 that gets grass put on it. My research now shows it's track that starts like Line 5 Eglinton, then gets soil and grass put on top. Although I am still not 100% sure.

Plenty of grass along Eglinton - as we can all see. I don't see how a couple of close-ups tell us much.

But where is there grass around the tracks on Finch? I don't go up there much, but I haven't seen any. I think they've used planters in some spots between the tracks and the roadway (I wonder if they built in automatic watering?)

As far as I understand it, it's the embedding in concrete that's the issue. No concrete, no problem. But I think really it's just gross incompetence from unqualified engineers who I can't understand are licenced in this province.

Grass on Queens Quay would be great, now we've seen how well it work son Eglinton. I was leery of it originally, given our harsh winters and dry summers. But here it is in August 2025 after 2-3 years and a hot summer and very cold winter (2024-25).

 

[urbanclient]

But where is there grass around the tracks on Finch? I don't go up there much, but I haven't seen any. I think they've used planters in some spots between the tracks and the roadway (I wonder if they built in automatic watering?)

There are no grass tracks on Finch, see edited post for clarification.

 

[urbanclient]

Although I still am not 100% sure.

This screenshot makes me think the grass track is built more like Line 6 Finch West, than Line 5's non-grass sections, but I could be wrong:

Also, I haven't measured or timed it, but it's safe to say a large part of Line 5's surface section does not have grass track, if not most. (Also holy crap, this video makes Line 5's surface top speeds look much faster than Line 6)

 

[nfitz]

This screenshot makes me think the grass track is built more like Line 6 Finch West, than Line 5's non-grass sections, but I could be wrong:

I have no idea - but I'd think there'd be a significant amount of earth there. I don't know how deep the water system is. Or if it has a concrete base - I'd guess so; it's not like they are putting in trees.

All I really know is it looks good, works, and I want to see more of it. You can see how well it lasts and how green it is, in the photo in my last post. Hopefully they use it even more extensively on future liines.

Also, I haven't measured or timed it, but I think it's safe to say a large part of Line 5's surface section does not have grass track, if not most.

That's because the video is shot during the daytime, and the grow-lights in the tunnels aren't turned on to get the grass to grow until after service ends.

I don't see how Finch West design was governed by fire trucks, when it didn't impact Line 5. That sounds a bit like an urban legend. I'd think that has more to do with what was in one spec and not in the other.

Recall that TTC wrote the original Eglinton specs, but not the original Finch West specs.