Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[Leo_Chan]

Do you think renaming from Waterfront East LRT (in most places) to Waterfront East Transit was a condition for Provincial funding?

 

[dougtoronto]

I recall reading something to this effect, but this extension (and the widened Union loop) will mean the end of Queens Quay/Ferry Docks station, no? Would be great if it was kept but I am unsure how realistic this would be.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Do you think renaming from Waterfront East LRT (in most places) to Waterfront East Transit was a condition for Provincial funding?

I would think it would be better to call it the Waterfront East streetcar, because that's what people downtown are familiar with and this route will just be another part of the streetcar system in the end.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I recall reading something to this effect, but this extension (and the widened Union loop) will mean the end of Queens Quay/Ferry Docks station, no? Would be great if it was kept but I am unsure how realistic this would be.

They are actually planning on rebuilding and expanding it, with a direct connection to the south side of Queens Quay.

 

[DSCToronto]

I would think it would be better to call it the Waterfront East streetcar, because that's what people downtown are familiar with and this route will just be another part of the streetcar system in the end.

Yes, once it is built it will become the 507 or whatever number (or letter) designation it gets.

 

[smallspy]

I have no idea - but I'd think there'd be a significant amount of earth there. I don't know how deep the water system is. Or if it has a concrete base - I'd guess so; it's not like they are putting in trees.

All I really know is it looks good, works, and I want to see more of it. You can see how well it lasts and how green it is, in the photo in my last post. Hopefully they use it even more extensively on future liines.

I watched the crews as they installed it. It is built just like the exposed trackage elsewhere, but with rubber encapsulation of the rails. They then started filling in the space with soil, and put in the watering piping about half-way down the depth of the soil. They they laid out the rolls of turf. They were able to finish each section in a matter of days.

I don't see how Finch West design was governed by fire trucks, when it didn't impact Line 5. That sounds a bit like an urban legend. I'd think that has more to do with what was in one spec and not in the other.

It did impact Line 5 - just not as much. That's why much of the trackage approaching intersections is fully paved to grade - it's to allow emergency vehicles to bypass any lines at left turn lanes.

Recall that TTC wrote the original Eglinton specs, but not the original Finch West specs.

Absolutely correct, although there were some minor changes between the original EA docs and the final built form for Eglinton.

Dan

 

[NoahB]

Grass in the tracks is planned for this project as of the 2023 update.
I dont remember the exntent of it, but I remember the presenters were very excited for it themselves.

Dont have time to look for more details.

Spoiler

(I should get back to work)

But here is the video I think is the one I remember. It shows what they are calling "The Greenway." According to the video, they are planning a "pilot project" in Segment 3. Not sure what that means.

 

[DSCToronto]

Why does this need to be built in phases?

Because some parts of it are MUCH more complicated and time-consuming.

Building the surface line is comparatively 'easy' and WT have already passed the 60% design stages on it. Re-building the Bay Street tunnel and the Union Station Loop is FAR more complex and the TTC has not even reached the 30% design level yet. If one were to avoid building in stages you/we will see nothing for decade. If we implement in stages we COULD see an east-west extension in use while work is still going on with the tunnel and the loop. Of course, there will be a period when nothing will be able to operate along Queen's Quay because they will be working on the new tunnel portals on Queens Quay but, if properly planned, this could be fairly short.

 

[DSCToronto]

Grass in the tracks is planned for this project as of the 2023 update.
I dont remember the exntent of it, but I remember the presenters were very excited for it themselves.

Dont have time to look for more details.

Spoiler

(I should get back to work)

But here is the video I think is the one I remember. It shows what they are calling "The Greenway." According to the video, they are planning a "pilot project" in Segment 3. Not sure what that means.

The test with grass is supposed to be the section on Cherry (east side) and Commissioners (south side) where there is already grass.

 

[StreetcarRider]

Because some parts of it are MUCH more complicated and time-consuming.

Building the surface line is comparatively 'easy' and WT have already passed the 60% design stages on it. Re-building the Bay Street tunnel and the Union Station Loop is FAR more complex and the TTC has not even reached the 30% design level yet. If one were to avoid building in stages you/we will see nothing for decade. If we implement in stages we COULD see an east-west extension in use while work is still going on with the tunnel and the loop. Of course, there will be a period when nothing will be able to operate along Queen's Quay because they will be working on the new tunnel portals on Queens Quay but, if properly planned, this could be fairly short.

Aware that it will never happen, I kinda wish they'd forget the tunnel and re-allocate the budget to overhauling Bay Street from Queen to Queen's Quay: close the street to cars (or strictly limit) and install tracks on the surface, with connections to Union Station (under the rail bridge) and the Ontario Line.

Streetcar loops involving Queen are already in place, but new streetcars could have controls at both ends.

This plan would ease the Union Station bottleneck, enhance connectivity, and make Bay Street better serve the vast majority of people in the area who are not driving. As for people who are driving, there is only one loading dock / parking garage entrance facing Bay Street in the area (at the former Trump Tower) so it's feasible.

Plus, there would finally be a nice place from which to enjoy the heritage-protected view of the Old City Hall clock tower from the south.

Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk about impossible dreams that will never come true.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Aware that it will never happen, I kinda wish they'd forget the tunnel and re-allocate the budget to overhauling Bay Street from Queen to Queen's Quay: close the street to cars (or strictly limit) and install tracks on the surface, with connections to Union Station (under the rail bridge) and the Ontario Line.

Streetcar loops involving Queen are already in place, but new streetcars could have controls at both ends.

This plan would ease the Union Station bottleneck, enhance connectivity, and make Bay Street better serve the vast majority of people in the area who are not driving. As for people who are driving, there is only one loading dock / parking garage entrance facing Bay Street in the area (at the former Trump Tower) so it's feasible.

Enhance connectivity by extending the streetcar up to Queen? Line 1 already does this at far greater capacity. South of Union an at grade alignment would need to cross Lake Shore and Harbour, among the longest signals downtown.

A car free / car-lite Bay st with wider walking space sounds great but surface transit here wouldn’t add much value at all.

 

[lastcommodore]

A lot of UT member will be long gone and will miss the ride when this sucker starts service in 2050. The cost is out of hand considering TTC used to say it cost $50 million per km for a double track ROW. The portal will cost more than the $50 million. It shows how much is been eaten up for the tunnel and loop as well helping a few other TTC projects or other projects.
If TTC cannot do the QQE ROW for $400-$500 million, they need to cease to exist. TTC was short $90 million back in 2014 going to Parliament loop and that well over cost increase in 11 years.

The end of Q1 for a report is when the Executive Committee is to meet again.

Six projects Toronto wants to build — but hasn’t got funding for​

6. Waterfront East LRT (priceless)​

Numbers may cease to have meaning when it comes to building new transit lines in Toronto, but the estimated cost for the 3.8-kilometre line is $2.57 billion, with about $150 million spent on planning so far. It would run from Union Station to Villiers Loop in the Portlands, going along Queens Quay and Cherry Street. While it is a priority project for the city, which is heavily investing in developing the eastern waterfront including the new Ookwemin Minising neighbourhood, it is unclear when the project will move forward.

i dont want to be some joykill as I want this project to succeed but I really am concerned about this. The Star reports that the cost estimates for the line are now 3 billion dollars, or 789mn/km. Given this is supposed to be a city project, not MX- this does not even include O&M or probably vehicle acquisition! Not that the price would be acceptable even if it did, and this doesn't even factor the inevitable creeping cost as every transit project blows well past contingency and into overbudget...

This is not even acceptable from the "Costs have risen in Toronto!" Or whatever. This project is projected to cost, per km, 1.3x Eglinton Crosstown, 3x 6FW, and nearly as much as THE YONGE NORTH SUBWAY EXTENSION.

What in the world is going on??? I joked previously that one day we will be painting red TTC lanes for the cost we built subways... I almost did not want to post this comment because the data seems so ridiculous that someone is going to chime in and say "Duh, well that cost also includes +50km of new streetcar tracks".

At 6FW costs, this should cost 1bn dollars, and at the cost projected to build the ION Cambridge extension, it should cost 700 mil... not 3 billion...

 

[innsertnamehere]

Remember that this is a whole lot more than just some surface streetcar tracks - the union station terminal is massive project in itself and this includes a long list of waterfront public realm projects with very high quality landscaping features in it’s scope as well.

 

[nfitz]

i dont want to be some joykill as I want this project to succeed but I really am concerned about this. The Star reports that the cost estimates for the line are now 3 billion dollars, or 789mn/km. Given this is supposed to be a city project, not MX- this does not even include O&M or probably vehicle acquisition! Not that the price would be acceptable even if it did, and this doesn't even factor the inevitable creeping cost as every transit project blows well past contingency and into overbudget...

This is not even acceptable from the "Costs have risen in Toronto!" Or whatever. This project is projected to cost, per km, 1.3x Eglinton Crosstown, 3x 6FW, and nearly as much as THE YONGE NORTH SUBWAY EXTENSION.

What in the world is going on??? I joked previously that one day we will be painting red TTC lanes for the cost we built subways... I almost did not want to post this comment because the data seems so ridiculous that someone is going to chime in and say "Duh, well that cost also includes +50km of new streetcar tracks".

At 6FW costs, this should cost 1bn dollars, and at the cost projected to build the ION Cambridge extension, it should cost 700 mil... not 3 billion...

Vehicle acquisition is already complete. O&M certainly won't be part of the contracts, just part of the regular streetcar maintenance budgets.

Costs per km costs don't have much meaning. How much is being spent on the first 1-km at Union loop? $2 billion? And how much more for the Cherry underpass - $500 million? (I'm pulling those numbers out of my imagination).

Breaking down the cost per stage would help. Those numbers must exist somewhere - I'm not sure if they are public. But with one having the Union rebuild and new portal, one having the Cherry portal, and one being just track, we could pin down how much of the budget are those 2 portions, and what the real cost is for new surface track - without the usual road rebuild, utility and hydro relocation, bike lanes, 50 years of O&M, vehicles, operating costs, etc.

 

[NoahB]

i dont want to be some joykill as I want this project to succeed but I really am concerned about this. The Star reports that the cost estimates for the line are now 3 billion dollars, or 789mn/km. Given this is supposed to be a city project, not MX- this does not even include O&M or probably vehicle acquisition! Not that the price would be acceptable even if it did, and this doesn't even factor the inevitable creeping cost as every transit project blows well past contingency and into overbudget...

This is not even acceptable from the "Costs have risen in Toronto!" Or whatever. This project is projected to cost, per km, 1.3x Eglinton Crosstown, 3x 6FW, and nearly as much as THE YONGE NORTH SUBWAY EXTENSION.

What in the world is going on??? I joked previously that one day we will be painting red TTC lanes for the cost we built subways... I almost did not want to post this comment because the data seems so ridiculous that someone is going to chime in and say "Duh, well that cost also includes +50km of new streetcar tracks".

At 6FW costs, this should cost 1bn dollars, and at the cost projected to build the ION Cambridge extension, it should cost 700 mil... not 3 billion...

I really would like to know as well. In 2023, the tunnel and station rebuild alone was 1B. The stations in Segments 2/3 without the Cherry Street north connection were 1.3B. And the Cherry Street connection was 337M.

5 kilometers of streetcar tracks for 1.3 billion was excessive then. And now it is more expensive. It is an at-grade streetcar!

From this doc from 2023:

Subproject 1: The Union Station Loop has a total expenditure of $932M until project completion.
Subproject 2: The remainder of the project except Cherry North (East and West Portals, Queens Quay Ferry Docks Station, Yonge Slip Infill, Queens Quay East track from Bay to Cherry, Cherry Street South, Commissioners, and the Villiers Loop) has a total expenditure of $1.3B throughout the project lifecycle (inclusive of $130M for early works for Queens Quay Extension from the future Street A to Cherry Street).
Subproject 3 (Cherry Street Connection – Separate Phase): Cherry North extension has a total expenditure of $337M.