TTC: Streetcar Network

[steveintoronto]

The South Kingsway stop definitely not needed.

Definitely another Florsheim outlet needed for the South Kingsway shuttle crowd up to Jane Station (or Old Mill, which is very underused at present). Tsk, tsk, tsk...when will the madness ever end? It tears at my sole...

A better solution would be to eliminate the Parkside and S. Kingsway stops (the 2 least used).

Exactly! Glad you realized that. The phrase: "Grossly underutilized" comes to mind, don't it? So here's a real Jim Dandy deduction: Use them. Run shuttle expresses up to the subway to connect those travelling on the 'redirected 504 along the Queensway' up to the subway in lieu of the incredibly slow and unpredictable Roncesvalles route now used. (One I'm intimately familiar with, I live at Dundas W and Bloor).

Travel time for those using a redirected 504 west on Queensway would realize shorter commute times from the Humber Bay area and west, as well as those wishing to continue westwards on Line 2 reaching there by using shuttle expresses from various points along the Queensway and not only alleviating crowding on the subway and Dundas West/Roncy, but also better serving the communities to the south of the subway now, and to the north of the Queensway/Lakeshore alignment.

By using "the least used" stops to do it! Meantime those brave enough to face the slog up Roncy could do it on a redirected 501 to Dundas West Station. Nothing lost for those folks over the present situation, but HUGE amounts gained by those transiting westward (or the other way at other peak) from the Humber Loop to the Core. It might even be apt to run the 504 through the Humber Loop to a new loop further west, at least at peak.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Parkside stop, for those oblivious to the '504 along Queensway and 501 up Roncy' discussion, would be to allow the many time mentioned Parkside shuttle up to Keele Station. Oddly, without the streetcar stopping, the masses wishing to head to the subway would wear through perfectly good shoes skidding on the ashphalt in lieu of the King Car stopping.

Tsk, tsk, there's always the other northern shuttle links mentioned up to the subway. Perhaps Florsheim should open outlets at the affected Line 2 stations?

From link.

The eastbound 80 QUEENSWAY bus has a good transfer from the westbound 501 QUEEN. Transferring from the westbound 80 QUEENSWAY to 501 QUEEN not so good because there is no pedestrian crossing or lights there.

From link.

 

[crs1026]

Closing those stops will have little to no effect on velocity.

What is needed is a) transit priority on the traffic lights west of Roncy and b) insisting that operators drive directly at full speed to Humber Loop, instead of creeping because they are ahead of schedule (which is heavily padded) and/or bunched behind other cars.

Nothing so frustrating as looking at Nextbus and seeing your 66 connecting bus leaving ahead of your arrival, while your streetcar is dogging it along the Queensway.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

The eastbound 80 QUEENSWAY bus has a good transfer from the westbound 501 QUEEN. Transferring from the westbound 80 QUEENSWAY to 501 QUEEN not so good because there is no pedestrian crossing or lights there.

Discussed at length previously, by a number of other posters and myself. I even posted pics discussing and sizing the land immediately adjacent to the Parkside facility to allow a loop right there.

Just read back, other posters are onto it.

 

[steveintoronto]

Bumped from earlier:

I'm very pleased to have an answer I've been ruminating on. It's far from perfect, but it will work. And the cost is minute compared to the big picture.

I initially mentioned the gap between the Queensway and the CN tracks as a possible loop for buses on Parkside as a shuttle to the Keele subway, but had only checked it out on Google map, can be very misleading. Just happened to be passing there on foot today hiking distance with the Big Black Lab (he loves the lake as well as High Park, and yes, he was in swimming...don't ask!) and got some pics of said gap possible for a loop, and then Lab and I walked up the steps within the Queensway/Parkside bridge, and caught a streetcar east. I'll try and get a pic from up on the Queensway overlooking it when I don't have the dog with me.


Here again is the location on Google Map:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/To...23555502ab4c477!8m2!3d43.653226!4d-79.3831843

And here's the satellite view of same:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/To...23555502ab4c477!8m2!3d43.653226!4d-79.3831843

There's only just enough space for a turning loop, but it's there, plus space for a load/unload platform close to Parkside, to allow passengers to walk around the corner, under the bridge, and up the stairs. I was looking at the steps closely today. A new passage could be cut from the first landing south directly to a bus platform later, but for now, all that would be needed is a loop, added lights for buses to turn east from going south into the loop, and it would be tight, but no tighter than at many bus platforms now on the subway bus platforms, let alone streetcar ones.

Remember, I don't tout Parkside alone as a north-south semi-express link to the subway. Other posters are making the cases for a number of them further west, and *together* they offer greater flexibility and distributed loading. If one route is blocked by an accident, two or three others will continue to offer alternatives.

And semi-express north/south routes on the South Kingsway and further west to the Humber Bay Shores would offer much greater connection either way in peak. Mimico is getting a GO station, and I suspect that defines the western limit for a 504 being needed, or do others think the present Humber Loop would be enough if frequent Long Branch service is initiated?



This is resonating with me. It makes so much sense, and I'm glad you've offered the times to journey, because it makes a number of points, one being that the streetcar way, if streamlined, will do it in even less time, and the subway, and present bus routes, can only get worse.

Here's the pic of the potential loop area:

Many more pics and details abut this post https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/goto/post?id=1402551

Edit to Add: Pic above shows the potential Parkside Bus Loop in use as a staging area for GO bridge work on the Humber and adjacent. It is already in City or Provincial ownership.

 

[steveintoronto]

Closing those stops will have little to no effect on velocity.

What is needed is a) transit priority on the traffic lights west of Roncy and b) insisting that operators drive directly at full speed to Humber Loop, instead of creeping because they are ahead of schedule (which is heavily padded) and/or bunched behind other cars.

Nothing so frustrating as looking at Nextbus and seeing your 66 connecting bus leaving ahead of your arrival, while your streetcar is dogging it along the Queensway.

- Paul

I can't see how this hasn't already been considered by the TTC and Roads, it's so bog-obvious. The King Pilot still needs a lot of work, but a huge amount of an extension west is *already extant and waiting*! And it's the Queensway. What an incredible waste of potential!

Even as it stands, here's what's been stated prior on transit times from the Humber Loop to Core:

muller877 said:
Most of their destinations are along King or Queen. Even now if I want to get from the Humber Bay area it would take 55 minutes if I'm on the 501 to Downtown (including the walk to the Humber Loop) versus 1h 5min via 66/2/1. And of course you are stuck when the subway breaks down.

Perhaps @muller877 lost track of the string, and my apologies if I was brusque on the point, but Muller has shown that *even as it is now* taking the diversion to the subway and then down again in the Core is slower than streetcar.

The potential for improving on this is immense, and it will *cost next to nothing* and can be in place, functioning, and finessed within a year. And no-one would be happier than the folks at Humber Shores and vicinity.

Only one stop would be needed, btw Muller, between Parkside and Roncy, and it's St Joe's.

 

[crs1026]

I can't see how this hasn't already been considered by the TTC and Roads, it's so bog-obvious. The King Pilot still needs a lot of work, but a huge amount of an extension west is *already extant and waiting*! And it's the Queensway. What an incredible waste of potential!

Had this very discussion with someone from TTC at a Waterfront Transit Reset PIC. The traffic light installation along the Queensway is programmed to maximise auto flows. TTC has argued for years for transit priority.... and Roads won’t budge.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

TTC has argued for years for transit priority.... and Roads won’t budge.

Déjà vu all over again as per the King Street Pilot. @reaperexpress is very well informed on this issue. I invite his response and of others on this. I hear conflicting accounts now as to whether the King Pilot has full priority or not. I think not! All one has to do is look at how other cities prioritize this, some with arms that come down across intersections. That degree shouldn't be necessary, but it's indicative of how Toronto is far from being in alignment with best practice, even within Ontario.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Let's hope that the "Transit Czar" will be given some actual power over the Roads Department, and not be ignored.

 

[steveintoronto]

Let's hope that the "Transit Czar" will be given some actual power over the Roads Department, and not be ignored.

That's an excellent point. One more of Tory's grand visions that evaporates into the Ether...

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

From link.

The eastbound 80 QUEENSWAY bus has a good transfer from the westbound 501 QUEEN. Transferring from the westbound 80 QUEENSWAY to 501 QUEEN not so good because there is no pedestrian crossing or lights there.

View attachment 167048
View attachment 167050
From link.

Closing those stops will have little to no effect on velocity.

What is needed is a) transit priority on the traffic lights west of Roncy and b) insisting that operators drive directly at full speed to Humber Loop, instead of creeping because they are ahead of schedule (which is heavily padded) and/or bunched behind other cars.

Nothing so frustrating as looking at Nextbus and seeing your 66 connecting bus leaving ahead of your arrival, while your streetcar is dogging it along the Queensway.

- Paul

Yes, but the 80 bus is infrequent to the point where if you would transfer, you would kinda be screwed. As well, I take 501 on weekends, and have noticed almost every time ( except for last weekend ), that I was late to 66 by a few short minutes.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yes, but the 80 bus is infrequent to the point where if you would transfer, you would kinda be screwed. As well, I take 501 on weekends, and have noticed almost every time ( except for last weekend ), that I was late to 66 by a few short minutes.

Although I'm sure that @crs1026 will answer your point, I believe he was talking *in general* about the pace of streetcars along the Queensway, "dogging it"....(killing time), in this case, the 501. His reference wasn't to the 80 bus, something that's getting confused in what I propose, and perhaps redundant to need if the Queensway RoW is used to potential, and the 80 route can be cut back to the Humber Loop as it used to be. It is incredibly infrequent.

But that's exactly the point! A shuttle from various points along the '504 extended west' on the Queensway RoW will offer more timely and frequent connections north to the subway, and if the 504 is allowed to run unfettered by intersection lights (via priority) the frequency of arrivals as well as time to destination is significantly better.

And that is the formula for the 'King Tramway' to offer considerably shorter and faster travel time to the Core (or the reverse) from the Humber Loop, and perhaps even further west. As to whether an equal opportunity exists at the eastern end of the 501 is another question. I can't see anything to match the Queensway for a rapid corridor.

The 80 may or may not continue running in some form or other to Keele, but most of it east of the Humber Loop appears redundant and poor service anyway. What little there is that's not redundant to the Queensway Tram (whatever route number it is) can be done with one of the shuttles to connect the Queensway Tram to the subway being extended to loop south of the Queensway..

 

[crs1026]

^Sadly, buses typically run quite quickly along the Queensway, as we found during the 501 track rebuild.

The 80 is perhaps the route most atypical of all TTC bus routes.... it runs less frequently than it did in the 1960's. Partly, travel habits in Etobicoke are now tied to north-south trips to the subway, but it's odd just how little ridership that route generates, especially as development is happening along the Queensway. The link eastwards to Parkside is just a clever way of dealing with the lack of a really good place to loop on Lakeshore, so the Parkside bus might as well slide over to the Humber anyways. And, rather than have two buses looping and laying over, it's likely more productive to just keep 'em moving.

A better routing around Marine Parade Drive might attract some Keele-Humber Bay riders. Break the routes in two with 80 ending at Humber Loop, and have 80 (East) serve Parkside, Lakeshore Drive, and Marine Parade Drive, looping at Park Lawn or doubling back to Humber Loop.

- Paul

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

^Sadly, buses typically run quite quickly along the Queensway, as we found during the 501 track rebuild.

The 80 is perhaps the route most atypical of all TTC bus routes.... it runs less frequently than it did in the 1960's. Partly, travel habits in Etobicoke are now tied to north-south trips to the subway, but it's odd just how little ridership that route generates, especially as development is happening along the Queensway. The link eastwards to Parkside is just a clever way of dealing with the lack of a really good place to loop on Lakeshore, so the Parkside bus might as well slide over to the Humber anyways. And, rather than have two buses looping and laying over, it's likely more productive to just keep 'em moving.

A better routing around Marine Parade Drive might attract some Keele-Humber Bay riders. Break the routes in two with 80 ending at Humber Loop, and have 80 (East) serve Parkside, Lakeshore Drive, and Marine Parade Drive, looping at Park Lawn or doubling back to Humber Loop.

- Paul

Although I'm sure that @crs1026 will answer your point, I believe he was talking *in general* about the pace of streetcars along the Queensway, "dogging it"....(killing time), in this case, the 501. His reference wasn't to the 80 bus, something that's getting confused in what I propose, and perhaps redundant to need if the Queensway RoW is used to potential, and the 80 route can be cut back to the Humber Loop as it used to be. It is incredibly infrequent.

But that's exactly the point! A shuttle from various points along the '504 extended west' on the Queensway RoW will offer more timely and frequent connections north to the subway, and if the 504 is allowed to run unfettered by intersection lights (via priority) the frequency of arrivals as well as time to destination is significantly better.

And that is the formula for the 'King Tramway' to offer considerably shorter and faster travel time to the Core (or the reverse) from the Humber Loop, and perhaps even further west. As to whether an equal opportunity exists at the eastern end of the 501 is another question. I can't see anything to match the Queensway for a rapid corridor.

The 80 may or may not continue running in some form or other to Keele, but most of it east of the Humber Loop appears redundant and poor service anyway. What little there is that's not redundant to the Queensway Tram (whatever route number it is) can be done with one of the shuttles to connect the Queensway Tram to the subway being extended to loop south of the Queensway..

I have noticed this with the 501L on Lake Shore in Etobicoke is that, majority of the people on it are on it to connect with N-S bus routes to the subway. It's the same with the 80.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

The Parkside stop provides closer access to Sunnyside Swimming Pool, Budapest Park (and other Lakeshore Boulevard Parklands), and the Caribana Grande Parade. The South Kingsway stop definitely not needed.

Agree strongly with you. Parkside stop is needed for that plus 80 transfers.