TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Rainforest]

Vaughan and Richmond Hill should be served with high-frequency GO service. Shoehorning the TTC into a new role as a regional transit provider because the province is too lazy to properly fund and expand GO is a mistake.

GO or subway, it will be built largerly on the province's dime; Ontario tax code makes it all but impossible for municipality(ies) to raise enough capital.

 

[kkgg7]

What?! While other people here are talking about the annoying transfer between LRT and subway on Sheppard you're advocating for an entirely different transit system to operate 2KM of subway. Interesting.



OK, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you're not a professional urban planner. All due respect: I'm a little baffled that anyone who thinks there isn't a direct relation in every single way - geography, economy etc etc etc - between Toronto and the suburbs, to say nothing of its IMMEDIATE suburbs is even on these boards.

Yes, it would be nice if more people lived where they work in general, but to suggest people from Vaughan don't work, shop and eat in Toronto - and, yes, vice versa - is just riddiculous.

A subway in Vaughan is utterly pointless if it doesn't connect to Toronto. I'm not sure why you think a subway from Vaughan to Brampton makes more sense than a subway from Toronto to Hwy. 7 but....well, with all due respect, I'm happy you don't work for Metrolinx.



Wow. Again...unless you're trolling, I have to assume you haven't been north of Bloor since the Diefenbaker administration. First of all, transit doesn't exist to serve TORONTONIANS. It exists to serve commuters and - this may shock you - people travel from Markham to Toronto and Toronto to Richmond Hill and Richmond Hill to Vaughan and Vaughan to Mississauga and Toronto to Pickering and....you get the idea?

If you'd ever been within 10km of Finch Station you'd know that there are thousands, if not 10s of 1000s of people who come from the north to get on the subway and vice versa.

You're basing your idea of transit planning on a single factor: geography, with no grasp whatsoever of context or ridership or ridership patterns. Moreover, it's a wholly inaccurate perception of geography. There's no understanding indicated here of how human beings move, how economies grow etc.

The fact that you think Yonge Street is 50m wide in Richmond Hill when it's actually narrower than downtown is one more suggestion you don't get up round those parts too often. (So does the suggestion that "New Market" is two words.)



Well, in fact the exact opposite of this is true. You might live in neighbourhood where every single person lives and works in the same building. The rest of us cross borders every single day, all the time. Toronto depends on the suburbs and vice versa and you're going to amplify sprawl, cripple city's economy and create literal perpetual gridlock if you don't grasp that.

To circle back to Sheppard (if it's not too late) it would be nice if the planning for the subway were sensible - thoughts about ridership numbers, reducing transfers - instead of baseless, blanket statements about whether street transit is better than underground or whether "suburbs" need subways in the first place.

Hopefully something will get built on Sheppard but it could be a while.

hehe. you should know that I was exaggerating. My point is places north of Sheppard are suburban by nature and should be fine with an LRT. wasting money on undergrounds on their sparse area doesn't make sense. underground subway is only needed for south of eglington area, because that's called a city.

 

[Rainforest]

While I approve the desicion not to try building the whole line in one shot, building it one stop at a time is the opposite extreme, potentially resulting in unnecessarily high per-km costs. Adding 3-4 stops at a time makes more sense.

If Moscow can do this, why can't we?
I don't get why there would be higher cost.

We surely can build one station at a time; however, it will increase the per-km cost for a number of reasons:
1) We need to build a launch site every time, and then clean up the construction mess.
2) We need to build a bus terminal at every interim terminus.
3) We need to build a crossover and other terminal facilities at every interim terminus.

 

[kkgg7]

Maybe you should of written a complaint to MPP Greg Sorbera who wanted a subway in Vaughan in the first place

suburbs don't deserve underground subways. above ground LRTs shoudl suffice.
If they want subways, which are for cities, move to the city.

 

[nfitz]

suburbs don't deserve underground subways. above ground LRTs shoudl suffice.
If they want subways, which are for cities, move to the city.

The original plan was to build the subway to Steeles West. Given that it's only 1 stop from there to the 407 Transitway, seems like a no brainer to me. And 1 more stop to get to a good terminus location. Not seeing the big deal here.

I certainly don't understand your suggestion that the two subways not connect. I really have to question the motives of someone who would suggest that ... seems like more trolling to me.

 

[Rainforest]

suburbs don't deserve underground subways. above ground LRTs shoudl suffice.
If they want subways, which are for cities, move to the city.

Uhm ... what if they don't move to the "city", and refuse to contribute their tax dollars to the "city's" subways (by electing a mayor / councillors / MPPs who don't want to build any new transit in the core)? Even if the core was a separate municipal entity, it would have a hard time to generate subway funding on its own, since Ontario municipalities cannot collect income tax or sales tax.

 

[kkgg7]

The original plan was to build the subway to Steeles West. Given that it's only 1 stop from there to the 407 Transitway, seems like a no brainer to me. And 1 more stop to get to a good terminus location. Not seeing the big deal here.

I certainly don't understand your suggestion that the two subways not connect. I really have to question the motives of someone who would suggest that ... seems like more trolling to me.

I was not trolling. I was just being sarcastic as a response to a comment regarding something called "Vaughan Convention Center" definitely requiring an underground subway. Of course subways should connect to each other, please don't misunderstand me.
my point is the suburbs don't need undergrounds. it is a waste of time. subways run above ground outside the urban area in most big cities, so should the sheppard line, or Finch line, or anything north.

 

[kkgg7]

Uhm ... what if they don't move to the "city", and refuse to contribute their tax dollars to the "city's" subways (by electing a mayor / councillors / MPPs who don't want to build any new transit in the core)? Even if the core was a separate municipal entity, it would have a hard time to generate subway funding on its own, since Ontario municipalities cannot collect income tax or sales tax.

yeah, that's pretty frustrating.
I am annoyed that none of the planned subways are in the city core, which needs rapid transit more than the suburbs.
Toronto is so backward in terms of public transit compared with large cities in the world, yet nothing gets done. Even a tiny project as the presto card has taken more than 5 years and it is still not widely adopted, and we are stuck with the 1980 token. it is just an unbelievable place.

 

[Rainforest]

Spending $670 million to convert subway to LRT and eliminate just one transfer is hardly a good idea by any standards.

Its a lot cheaper than spending 4B on the continuation of the Sheppard subway

But even if the subway is extended, there is no need to spend $4B on it.

Extending the subway from Don Mills to Warden (3.5 km) would cost about $1.4 B; and a BRT from Warden to McCowan (4 km) would cost perhaps $200 million; for a total of $1.6 B.

By comparison, SELRT was budgeted at $1.2 B. If $670 million is added to convert the existing Sheppard subway to LRT, that would bring the total to almost $1.9 B.

From the above two options, the "short subway + BRT" is actually cheaper than the LRT option (if the latter comes with conversion).

 

[Rainforest]

yeah, that's pretty frustrating.
I am annoyed that none of the planned subways are in the city core, which needs rapid transit more than the suburbs.
Toronto is so backward in terms of public transit compared with large cities in the world, yet nothing gets done. Even a tiny project as the presto card has taken more than 5 years and it is still not widely adopted, and we are stuck with the 1980 token. it is just an unbelievable place.

I agree that DRL subway is better bang for the buck than Sheppard subway; the question is how to play it nice with the populace that does not all reside in the city core (or even within 416), and does not necessarily use transit on a regular basis. Toronto will need their support, or at least neutrality, to make DRL happen.

 

[nfitz]

A new Toronto Star article just out:

All signs point to Sheppard being dead — D-E-A-D, dead

Seems that the question of the $650 for Sheppard from the Eglinton surplus came up today when Transport Minister Chiarelli met with Rob Ford today at the Eglinton line construction site. Chiarelli made it clear that money wouldn't be coming any time soon. The numbers are made a bit clearer here. While the maximum commitment is $650 million, they were only forecasting that Eglinton would be $200 million under the budget amount - and that cost overruns could erode that.

 

[kkgg7]

I agree that DRL subway is better bang for the buck than Sheppard subway; the question is how to play it nice with the populace that does not all reside in the city core (or even within 416), and does not necessarily use transit on a regular basis. Toronto will need their support, or at least neutrality, to make DRL happen.

sometimes democracy becomes a means to selfishly serve one's own interest, rather than to make the best decision. when the suburbs become increasingly larger, policies tilted toward them. how sad is that.

I envision the Yonge line may sometime extend north to New Market and Barrie, Spadina line to Brampton, Orangeville and Collingwood. and why not extend the Bloor line to Hamilton and Pickering so that all the suburbs can have a train to downtown Toronto very 5 minutes, yet the city cores still get nothing built.

 

[nfitz]

I envision the Yonge line may sometime extend north to New Market and Barrie, Spadina line to Brampton, Orangeville and Collingwood. and why not extend the Bloor line to Hamilton and Pickering so that all the suburbs can have a train to downtown Toronto very 5 minutes, yet the city cores still get nothing built.

Why not just build frequent GO service that would run every 15 minutes or less, and connect to the subway lines ...

... oh wait, they are.

 

[Jonny5]

Wait. Ford actually thought the "Eglinton line surplus" will be advanced 10 years before anyone knows if it exists? Ah, he was expecting Premier Hudak to advance it to him. Woops!

On an unrelated note, I bet everyone at 1 Yonge Street is having a good chuckle over that picture.

 

[sixrings]

But even if the subway is extended, there is no need to spend $4B on it.

Extending the subway from Don Mills to Warden (3.5 km) would cost about $1.4 B; and a BRT from Warden to McCowan (4 km) would cost perhaps $200 million; for a total of $1.6 B.

By comparison, SELRT was budgeted at $1.2 B. If $670 million is added to convert the existing Sheppard subway to LRT, that would bring the total to almost $1.9 B.

From the above two options, the "short subway + BRT" is actually cheaper than the LRT option (if the latter comes with conversion).

how much to get to kennedy? i see your financial math but i would suggest that a lrt without a transfer which so many people hate would be better then a bus that transfers onto a subway. but if you can get to kennedy for 1.9 billion i might agree that makes more sense. at some point we are going to have to add in the cost of going west to dowsview tho. the longer we make the line the more lrt makes sense. all im advocating is that something substantial gets built that has the least amount of transfers versus a subway whichhas multiple transfers. its not lrt i have a boner for. its NO transfers or the least amount possible transfers I jphave a boner for.

btw LAZ it os possible that two people or more could have came up with that crqzy interlining idea independantly of eachother. i cant remember every post on each thread but ive been thinking all along it should unterline at least to downsview park station.