TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Dan416]

The amount of cognitive dissonance in your statements about some of these projects and not to mention neurosis is off the charts. Come on, screwing Scarborough? lol

I think you need to look up the term "cognitive dissonance" again.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think you need to look up the term "cognitive dissonance" again.

CC,

Listen I agree with you. Sheppard should have been completed as a subway. And to be fair, you do support the LRTs for the rest of the system. MY issue is if Ford had come up with a proper plan , I would have supported this. But ford was only going to fund three stops. How was creating a transfer at Vic Park going to help anybody? But if we really want to get into this, I would suggest the Bloor Danforth the the STC would actually be better.

 

[nfitz]

The people of dntn Toronto should NOT get any subway... cuz most of them voted AGAINST the pro subway mayor.. remember??? So why should they get subway?

First or all, that makes no sense. You assume that Ford is a pro-subway mayor ... yet he clearly isn't, as he made no attempt to put forth a plan to build the Sheppard subway.

Secondly, your geography seems poor. The Sheppard Subway Expansion isn't in downtown.

 

[nfitz]

No. Miller is not getting enough credit for this whole mess.

-He killed the DRL study for his precious Transit City plan.

Why are you making stuff up?

The current DRL study was started during the Miller government. It was his council that voted to request Metrolinx advance it from the 25-year plan, to the 15-year plan, and start the current study. There was no DRL study before that to kill since pre-amalgamation.

Haven't read the rest of what you posted ... presumably it's as full as lies as the first point.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

BTW the argument that Sheppard subway should be opposed because density is not hi enough is ridiculous. The Miller administration cheerfully agreed to a subway to Vaughan, and I'm quite sure the density up there is less than Scarboro.

No, this was politics mixed in with racism.. after all Vaughan has a lesser percentage of non whites than Scarborough.

No Vaughan was done by Sobara.

 

[nfitz]

No Vaughan was done by Sobara.

Only after the Toronto Council under Miller put forth a resolution supporting the the subway extension to Steeles West.

 

[BurlOak]

Frankly, prioritizing another corridor (Finch West, or Eglinton - Kingston Rd - UTSC) would be a much better peace offering.

I came up with a Table showing how much of the recent transit money was spent in each former borough, and what the percentage of population each borough represents. I think you can easily make an arguement that transit funding should be distributed more based on origins and destinations (in which case Toronto may be about 50% and not 29%) - but this will do for now. (sorry for the appearance of the Table, I have not figured out a way of doing a nice Table).

......Eg.....SRT.....SE.....FW.....Sp....Sh.....Tot
......$4.8...$1.4...$1.1..$1.1.....................$8.4
TO...$1.6.............................................$1.6
EY...$0.7.............................................$0.7
.Y....$1.6.............................................$1.6
NY...$0.4...........$0.4..$0.8...$1.7...$1.0....$4.3
SC...$0.5..$1.4...$0.7.............................$2.6
ET...........................$0.3.....................$0.3

.....TC..Excluding......Including
...Spadina/Sheppard
.....(%$)..(%pop).....(%$)...(%pop)

TO....20.....29...........14.....29
EY......9......4.............6......4
Y......20......6...........14.......6
NY....20.....25...........39.....25
SC....33.....23...........23.....23
ET......4.....13............3.....13


This shows that North York, with 25% of the population, has recieved 20% of the Transit City Phase 1 funding, but if you include the Spadina (Toronto portion) and Sheppard, they have recieved 39% of the funding. Scarborough with 23% of the population, has roughly recieved their share of funding, while Etobicoke is about 3 or 4%, while their population is 13%. If you look at the old city of Toronto, their funding is about half of what it should be.

Toronto not getting their "fare share" of funding should make the DRL and easy sell. The DRL also help improve the service for those in the suburbs.

However, the transit debates over the last few years shows that Scarborough is not happy with what they got - even though dollar wise it is about right. So it seems that spending over $2.5B on Scarborough has not yielded any positive results. Is this because they are ingrateful, or is it because the money was spent on something they did not want. I think spending a few hundred million to elevate the Eglinton line would have made them a happier. A small extension of Sheppard subway, the option of an elevated Sheppard subway, or even deferring the whole thing, probably would have made them happier. (Maybe building the far eastern portion of the SELRT to allow the Conlins yard to be used).

It would have been a lot easier to sell the DRL if the boroughs were happy. The decisions that have been made in the past 2 months probably make the fight for the DRL that much harder.

 

[BurlOak]

But if we really want to get into this, I would suggest the Bloor Danforth the the STC would actually be better.

I used to think this, but then there would be an obvious call to make the B-D a continuous line with the Sheppard subway - even though it only makes sense from a connectivity point of view since the transit demands are so different.

If the estimates of $1.9B (about 6km from Kennedy to STC) are accurate, I think it is better to spend a fraction of the money on elevating the Eglinton line through Scarborough and providing a one transfer trip to downtown via Don Mills and the DRL.

As for Sheppard, I say put it on hold - no subway or LRT - until a clear mandate can be achieved. Now we got a legal mandate from Council, but not a moral mandate from the public. Maybe use the money to finish the SRT and serve Scarborough in that way.

 

[BurlOak]

It is like saying Fred needs no money right now, stop screwing Fred by giving him $25K, only $250K is acceptable. It is completely illogical.

I think its more like saying that everyone is entitled to their money but Fred must spend it on what TO says, and not on what Fred wants. Everyone else can spend it on what they want.

 

[GenerationW]

Only after the Toronto Council under Miller put forth a resolution supporting the the subway extension to Steeles West.

Which amounted to a formality after Miller's lobbying efforts to extend Sheppard were crushed decisively by the combined forces of the Provincial government, the Federal government, York Region, and York University.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I used to think this, but then there would be an obvious call to make the B-D a continuous line with the Sheppard subway - even though it only makes sense from a connectivity point of view since the transit demands are so different.

If the estimates of $1.9B (about 6km from Kennedy to STC) are accurate, I think it is better to spend a fraction of the money on elevating the Eglinton line through Scarborough and providing a one transfer trip to downtown via Don Mills and the DRL.

As for Sheppard, I say put it on hold - no subway or LRT - until a clear mandate can be achieved. Now we got a legal mandate from Council, but not a moral mandate from the public. Maybe use the money to finish the SRT and serve Scarborough in that way.

I would agree 100 percent. People are not transit planners, and then Sheppard, Bloor beings continuous would simply draw more riders away from Sheppard. Maybe Sheppard should be put on hold.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think its more like saying that everyone is entitled to their money but Fred must spend it on what TO says, and not on what Fred wants. Everyone else can spend it on what they want.

They can? Where are these people getting the subways they want? Nobody is getting the subways they want. Who on the planet would want an LRT over a subway if money were no object? Money is an object and if people get to choose that all their money is spent on a segment of subway to the benefit of their ward there will be 44 chunks of money to be decided on with only maybe 4 of 44 thinking Sheppard West is the most important to their ward, the rest of the Scarborough wards would probably benefit more from a Danforth extension or a long Eglinton subway.

 

[BurlOak]

They can? Where are these people getting the subways they want? Nobody is getting the subways they want. Who on the planet would want an LRT over a subway if money were no object? Money is an object and if people get to choose that all their money is spent on a segment of subway to the benefit of their ward there will be 44 chunks of money to be decided on with only maybe 4 of 44 thinking Sheppard West is the most important to their ward, the rest of the Scarborough wards would probably benefit more from a Danforth extension or a long Eglinton subway.

East York, North Toronto and York are getting a fully grade separated underground LRT - basically a subway to most people. North York is getting subway along the Spadina route. All of these are 1 or 0 transfers from downtown. Scarborough is getting median LRT with at least 2 transfers to downtown.

There is a much bigger difference between median LRT and anything grade separated, than there is between subway and underground LRT.

 

[sixrings]

East York, North Toronto and York are getting a fully grade separated underground LRT - basically a subway to most people. North York is getting subway along the Spadina route. All of these are 1 or 0 transfers from downtown. Scarborough is getting median LRT with at least 2 transfers to downtown.

There is a much bigger difference between median LRT and anything grade separated, than there is between subway and underground LRT.

It should be obvious that the farther the way you are from your destination the more transfers you will likely have to make. I visited my sister at midland and mcnicole for dinner the other night and couldn't believe how far it was from downtown. I didn't Google it but I am sure it is equally as far as mississauga city Centre. I'm pretty sure no one expects riders from MCC to only have to take one transfer to get downtown. I'm all for eliminating transfers but let's admit when places are damn far and it's unrealistic. That being said I would go to other surface subway sized spacing on eglinton so I could keep the srt interlining.

 

[44 North]

Are there plans for an S(L)RT extension?

I recall Gordon Cho mentioning a motion for it during the Great Sheppard Debate a few weeks ago. Is an extension towards Malvern on Metrolinx's radar? If so, I think it's brilliant. It allows for rapid transit to reach an area of the city severely underserved by RT. Further, it gives a Scarberians what they demanded from a Sheppard extension, and then some.