TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[sixrings]

I think too many people obsess too much over transfers. It's not worth trying to come up with madly expensive, complicated, and operationally difficult schemes just to save a small number of people the indignity of having to make a transfer.

In a grid based system, you will have transfers. It works better that way because it allows for more frequent service.

Regarding this scheme, any track changes will need to be fully grade separated if its to be used in regular service. I don't think any of the track geometry north of Sheppard takes this into account and hopefully never gets changed to allow it.

I too think people obsess over transfers. However in this case the elimination of the transfer makes a long time of sense should since it will save time for the commuter. Without eliminating the transfer people who get on east of yonge on the Sheppard line will continue to use the yonge line because it's simply faster to get downtown. If this is supposed to act like a semi DRL it needs to be as fast as possible.

As for inter lining the subway I don't think it will be too difficult since its almost at the end of the line. What I would assume would happen is that sheppard/university/yonge would became the standard while the Vaughan line would run less frequent. Probably q 2:1 ratio. I can't see this being that complex considering trains already short turn right now. Basically instead of short turning the train might continue in a direction the rider doesn't want. But with notice the rider should easily be able to get off at downsview/sheppard west and East wait for their appropriate train.

 

[sixrings]

Btw if interlining does become a reality on Sheppard then I hope we will see jane lrt interline with the central eglinton portion and then go up don mills. Both don mills and jane will likely not go south of eglinton because of the fact they will have to be tunnelled. Interlining though gives the rider some flexibility.

I'm still holding out hope that with greater stop spacing the srt and eglinton can become one line as well.

 

[Rainforest]

Plan seems like an interesting idea. The problem comes in the actual operation of this scheme.

Interlining requires the trains to be on-time for it to work properly, otherwise delays will form if 2 trains try to merge onto the Spadina segment at the same time. One only needs to look back at why the TTC abandoned interlining on the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge-University lines. It is very hard for trains to run on-time today, due to all the small events that cascade delays.

Delays are undesirable whether you have branches or not, but I don't think the risk of delays prevents branches. If the train from one branch misses its window, it just takes the next spot in the schedule.

Does the funding for this plan require Finch to go BRT? I doubt taxes on parking and reallocating Sheppard LRT funding can pay for this whole plan. Some money must have been taken from Finch LRT as well.

That depends on the prioritization; but I'd rather put Finch LRT first as its design is largely complete.

For Sheppard, if you have an ongoing revenue stream then eventually you will have enough money to build it (and note that it is still only 6 km, 4 to the west and 2 to the east; far from the full Sheppard line that Ford wanted).

 

[BurlOak]

Btw if interlining does become a reality on Sheppard then I hope we will see jane lrt interline with the central eglinton portion and then go up don mills. Both don mills and jane will likely not go south of eglinton because of the fact they will have to be tunnelled. Interlining though gives the rider some flexibility.

I'm still holding out hope that with greater stop spacing the srt and eglinton can become one line as well.

I would think that it is much easier to interline a subway than a median LRT. The subways run like clockwork (almost) as there is no interference along the route. Small delays may exist at a aprticular station, but overall, its timing is quite predictable.

Out on the streets, you will have weather delays and traffic delays. I am sure that many drivers will block the LRT by attempting illegal left turns, vehicles (emergency or regular traffic) may drive on the LRT lanes, there are issues of accidents, pedestrians J-walking, etc.

It should be much easier to prevent subways from bunching when compared to LRT, thus it shoudl be much easier to interline a subway.

 

[Standard]

Delays are undesirable whether you have branches or not, but I don't think the risk of delays prevents branches. If the train from one branch misses its window, it just takes the next spot in the schedule.

That is the issue, if a train misses it's window it will have to wait an extra 3 minutes for the next one. This causes the trains behind it to be delayed as well depending on how closely they run. This scheme of interlining I believe will cause longer wait times and more delays than there is currently.

That depends on the prioritization; but I'd rather put Finch LRT first as its design is largely complete.

For Sheppard, if you have an ongoing revenue stream then eventually you will have enough money to build it (and note that it is still only 6 km, 4 to the west and 2 to the east; far from the full Sheppard line that Ford wanted).

The western section will be costly to build because of the large gorge near Sheppard and Bathurst. Either a new bridge will have to be built to accommodate subway or the subway will have to go very deep underground (very deep and expensive Bathurst station). This will probably make the cost equal to just extending the line to STC.

 

[BurlOak]

The western section will be costly to build because of the large gorge near Sheppard and Bathurst. Either a new bridge will have to be built to accommodate subway or the subway will have to go very deep underground (very deep and expensive Bathurst station). This will probably make the cost equal to just extending the line to STC.

If you look at the existing Sheppard subway costs, I would guess that the Don River East bridge cost much less per km than the tunnelled portion.

 

[Rainforest]

That is the issue, if a train misses it's window it will have to wait an extra 3 minutes for the next one. This causes the trains behind it to be delayed as well depending on how closely they run. This scheme of interlining I believe will cause longer wait times and more delays than there is currently.

But delays of that kind happen without interlining as well.

On the other hand, if one of the branches is having troubles, you can temporarily direct all mainline trains to the other branch, thus the service on the common section of the route is less affected.

The western section will be costly to build because of the large gorge near Sheppard and Bathurst. Either a new bridge will have to be built to accommodate subway or the subway will have to go very deep underground (very deep and expensive Bathurst station). This will probably make the cost equal to just extending the line to STC.

Yes, the West Don crossing is a challenge; I would think that a subway bridge is a better option than going deep under; but that's up to the engineers to decide.

Another challenge is connection to the Spadina line if they want to make Sheppard a branch of it. On the other hand, if it is workable, then they do not need to build a new station at Downsview; whereas the STC subway station would likely be very costly because the area is built up.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Meanwhile in places like Parliament, Parkdale......

 

[Solid Snake]

Meanwhile in places like Parliament, Parkdale......

http://metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/bo...and Related Planning Studies - FINAL (DS).pdf

Most likely in the 2020 decade

 

[Standard]

But delays of that kind happen without interlining as well.

On the other hand, if one of the branches is having troubles, you can temporarily direct all mainline trains to the other branch, thus the service on the common section of the route is less affected.

That's my point, operationally, interlining will be fraught with problems due to delays always happening on one line or the other.

On a line with wide gaps and an interval of 5 minutes or more between trains it would probably be ok, as there is a larger window to recover lost time. But during rush hours the YUS line runs at a close headway of just under 2.5 mins. This doesn't give a lot of window for mistakes to happen.

And if you are going to redirect trains if there is an issue to the other line, that would mean one line would suffer with reduced subway service until things can be fixed. This just brings more logistical difficulties.

 

[MetroMan]

hmmm.. what happened to all my recent comments? They've been deleted? I guess I stepped on some councillor's toes by sharing too much? None of what I shared is confidential.

 

[Rainforest]

^ Your comments are still in the thread ... on pages 120 and 121.

 

[car4041]

Plan seems like an interesting idea. The problem comes in the actual operation of this scheme.

Aside from the problem of delays, what about the frequency of service on the branches? The off-peak frequency of 5 minutes on the YUS would mean that the Sheppard and York/Vaughan branches would each get a 10-minute service. I'm sure this is sufficient for the demand, but it's certainly a wider headway than we're used to in Toronto.

To get around this, the Sheppard line could be broken off to run separately (Downsview-Don Mills) in the off-peak, so that both lines can have a 5-minute frequency, but I can't imagine that the existing two platforms at Downsview would be enough for both the terminating Sheppard trains and the through trains to/from Vaughan. And I would think that reconstructing Downsview to add more platforms would negate the cost benefit of the scheme.

More generally, I don't like the idea of this scheme as a DRL substitute. In addition to relieving Yonge in rush hour, the DRL would serve a great deal of all-day demand in its corridor, whereas branching Sheppard off of the Spadina line would primarily only be useful in rush hour (for trips that would largely be better served by GO anyway). Outside of rush hour, I would think that most people coming from Don Mills would opt for the quicker Yonge route. Sure there would be some Scarborough-York U travel, but compared to what the DRL would give us, it seems like a bit of a waste. (That's assuming that it removes the need for a DRL as suggested above, though I'm not really sure that this would be the case.)

 

[Palma]

Very Clever!

By making Sheppard a Spadina Branch, you bypass the Ridership issue but can the existing subway Stations on Sheppard accommodate the TR?

Maybe I am missing something but how is thee money for extending sheppard east ( I am trying to follow this thread and think thats what is being said

 

[nfitz]

Maybe I am missing something but how is thee money for extending sheppard east ( I am trying to follow this thread and think thats what is being said

Apparently from the $1 billion for the Sheppard East LRT plus revenue from new taxes - on parking apparently.

Aside from the problem of delays, what about the frequency of service on the branches? The off-peak frequency of 5 minutes on the YUS would mean that the Sheppard and York/Vaughan branches would each get a 10-minute service. I'm sure this is sufficient for the demand, but it's certainly a wider headway than we're used to in Toronto.

It's only late evenings on week days that YUS frequency is greater than 4 minutes. You'd only have to add a few trains in late evenings, and on weekends to get it to 4 minutes at all times. So that's 8 minutes on Sheppard - which will be more than enough to meet demand - especially as you would have to increase to 6-car trains. Sheppard is currently every 5.5 minutes at all times with 4-car trains, so it would only need to be a frequency of 8.3 minutes to provide the current capacity.

At peak the YUS is a frequency of about 2.5 minutes, so the Sheppard frequency would actually be improved from what it is, with only half the trains. Not seeing a huge issue here.