TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[CanadianNational]

Interesting....

Certainly the desire is there to do something more with Sheppard, simply to make sense of it.

Any move to extend Sheppard in any direction would help the Mayor save face, and soothe some of the acrimony that his promises have whipped up. It sounds like a chilled, Stintz kind of move. If it's true, whether it is a notion thought up with a good chance of becoming real, or simply one fabricated to smooth proceedings is open to debate. Either way, it would be interesting because it would put the Mayor on the spot to see if he was realistically serious about funding the subway and getting it built - even in this reduced capacity - or if he just wants to keep blowing hot air. Either way, council can come to a decision.

On a side note: could the notion of extending the Sheppard Line westward to Downsview possibly drain future commitments to the Finch LRT going to Yonge? That would be a lot of rapid transit being committed to a relatively underpopulated area.

 

[nfitz]

nfitz, I do have a source. I frequent City Hall and speak with councillor assistants and know a few of the councillors personally as well. You'll find some of my scoops in the Rob Ford thread where I broke the news that Milcyzn was going to defect to the Stintz camp among others. I won't mention the sources names so that I can continue to bring us more info as I get it.

Fair enough. I believe you when you say they are discussing it. Just wondered if there was anything out there.

If you think about it, this option is actually quite ingenious. It serves the purpose of the DRL to an extent. It would relieve pressure off the Bloor/Danforth line. Scarborough residents could choose to instead take the Sheppard line and stay on one train all the way to Union station, by passing the Yonge line and the over capacity Bloor/Yonge station entirely, and giving purpose to the under performing University/Spadina and Sheppard lines.

A DRL in the future would still be necessary, but not so urgently. In fact, one can argue that a future extension from Vic Park to Kennedy would solve the DRL problem entirely.

It's certainly ingenious. But I'm not convinced it will do much to alleviate the BD or negate the need for the DRL. Travel time from Yonge/Sheppard to Union (for example) is 24 minutes. Downsview to Union is 27 minutes. The travel time from Yonge/Sheppard to Downsview would be about 6 minutes (it's slightly longer than Eglinton to York Mills, which takes 6 minutes. So Sheppard-Yonge to Union would be 33 minutes via Downsview, and only 24 minutes via Yonge. That's a big penalty for those heading downtown. I expect those that do go for such an option, aren't the ones using the BD line, and won't offer that much (though some) relief to Bloor-Yonge station.

 

[MetroMan]

It's certainly ingenious. But I'm not convinced it will do much to alleviate the BD or negate the need for the DRL. Travel time from Yonge/Sheppard to Union (for example) is 24 minutes. Downsview to Union is 27 minutes. The travel time from Yonge/Sheppard to Downsview would be about 6 minutes (it's slightly longer than Eglinton to York Mills, which takes 6 minutes. So Sheppard-Yonge to Union would be 33 minutes via Downsview, and only 24 minutes via Yonge. That's a big penalty for those heading downtown. I expect those that do go for such an option, aren't the ones using the BD line, and won't offer that much (though some) relief to Bloor-Yonge station.

33 minutes via Dowsview VS 24 via Yonge plus a subway interchange which can take as much as 5 minutes between trains and 2 or 3 more minutes walking to change to a different platform. If I lived near Vic Park or in Scarborough where I had to take a bus to Kennedy or Vic Park, I'd rather take it to Vic Park, get a seat on the subway and sit back all the way downtown.

 

[nfitz]

33 minutes via Dowsview VS 24 via Yonge plus a subway interchange which can take as much as 5 minutes between trains and 2 or 3 more minutes walking to change to a different platform. If I lived near Vic Park or in Scarborough where I had to take a bus to Kennedy or Vic Park, I'd rather take it to Vic Park, get a seat on the subway and sit back all the way downtown.

If I lived near Kennedy/Sheppard or even Victoria Park, and had to go to Union in rush-hour, I'd take the bus to Agincourt, and take the GO - it's faster.

I see your point ... and I'm sure it will provide some relief (those living at Bathurst/Sheppard come to mind!). And it may well increase Sheppard ridership. I'm just not sure it's going to negate the need for the DRL, or do much to relieve Bloor-Yonge. It would be interesting to see what the demand modelling based on this shows though.

 

[Paleo]

If you think about it, this option is actually quite ingenious. It serves the purpose of the DRL to an extent. It would relieve pressure off the Bloor/Danforth line. Scarborough residents could choose to instead take the Sheppard line and stay on one train all the way to Union station, by passing the Yonge line and the over capacity Bloor/Yonge station entirely, and giving purpose to the under performing University/Spadina and Sheppard lines.

Just stop thinking along these lines. The arrangement at Downsview won't work without a massive reconstruction and no one will take the line all the way out west just to "avoid" Yonge because it's a waste of time.

It's more than 10-15 extra minutes of travel and that's assuming you don't have to swing around the loop at Union to go north to any point above.

 

[nfitz]

Just stop thinking along these lines. The arrangement at Downsview won't work without a massive reconstruction and no one will take the line all the way out west just to "avoid" Yonge because it's a waste of time.

Why massive reconstruction? What get's reconstructed? The curve to join the lines would begin north of the existing Downsview platform, and turn east, heading back south towards Sheppard - a bit out of the way, but not that radical to what you see in many cities (in Montreal for example, where you go really out of the way between Atwater and Lionel-Groulx).

It's more than 10-15 extra minutes of travel and that's assuming you don't have to swing around the loop at Union to go north to any point above.

We discussed above that it's 9 extra minutes, not including transfer time between Sheppard and Yonge at Sheppard-Yonge station. If heading to Union then, it's only about 4-5 minutes extra. If heading to U of T ... your saving time.

It would be highly ironic if Ford does this though. He goes on-and-on about Scarborough ... and then gives Scarborough nothing but LRT, and puts all the subway expansion in North York.

 

[sixrings]

Funny, I thought double-standards and straw-men arguments were the sole domain of the LRTistas.

I refuse to believe that Greater Toronto, which has probably double the population it did when it started building subways, now cannot support subways anywhere.

And if peak oil is around the corner, we should be doing everything in our power to build infrastructure and not throwing up road blocks.

As we all know the TTC can cook up any numbers you want to support any possible mode of transit on any route imaginable.

You say Sheppard has low ridership; it doesn't. It's been proven false many times. Extending it and making a true northern crosstown route will only improve its numbers. It might not make a big dent in 401 numbers right now, but as gas gets more expensive, people will look to alternatives, and their first choice is subway.

Now we can argue till you're blue in the face, and probably will. So go right ahead. Enjoy.

Lrt on a number of routes saves more gas then subway on one route.

 

[Ansem]

EDIT: To clarify, the stretch of Sheppard between Yonge and Downsivew wouldn't add enough demand to justify the subway -- the current residential neighbourhoods there would have to be razed to create the density, which isn't an option -- however, the panel is considering a different option where Sheppard would become one of two branches of the YUS. Some trains would go to York U, others would go to Vic Park. This option wouldn't require an expensive Downsview station reconfiguration with an additional platform. During construction of the York U extension, a split in the track would be built to allow some trains to go next to Downsview Park station and others would turn into a new Sheppard tunnel with the next stop being Bathurst. Riders that need to switch would simply get off the train and wait on the same platform for the next one going their way.

Very Clever!

By making Sheppard a Spadina Branch, you bypass the Ridership issue but can the existing subway Stations on Sheppard accommodate the TR?

 

[dunkalunk]

It certainly makes sense if doable; but is it practical? The Downsview platform is positioned N-S, and ends north of Sheppard. For the trains to serve that platform and then veer to Sheppard, the tracks would have to go quite far north first, and arc under the Wilson Heights / Wilmington area before returning to Sheppard.

It might be easier to feed the Sheppard line into the Wilson station instead of Downsview.

There would need to be 2 separate stations at Downsview being perpendicular to eachother whether or not a Sheppard West subway were interlined with the Spadina.

 

[nfitz]

By making Sheppard a Spadina Branch, you bypass the Ridership issue but can the existing subway Stations on Sheppard accommodate the TR?

Yes and no. They currently can't handle it, as the platform is only finished for 4 cars. But the entire platform is there behind false walls. Shouldn't be that much $ to finish off the remaining 1/3 of the existing 5 stations. Of all the tasks they'll have to deal with, that would be an easy one.

 

[typezed]

There is probably a flow of great numbers of people east-west along the top of the city. People who live in the inner suburbs who rarely go downtown. There are probably many students in Scarborough who attend York. Those trips aren't well served by transit. They're served by the highway network, but transit use to get from Scarborough to York requires bus trips, detours and multiple transfers. With the extension to York, it would have made sense (at least to me) to connect the Sheppard line to Downsview to facilitate those trips across the top of the city, all those trips that aren't interested in going anywhere near Union Station. But now there's not the money. If the University line wasn't extended past York, wasn't going to the two parking lots of Vaughan MegaMetropolis Sheer Awesomeness Centre, maybe those resources could have used to connect the University line and its extension to York to the Sheppard line and we could have had a little bit of a network of high order transit, one that works for more than just heading downtown. But reaching for Vaughan is a dumb decision already made, and it's one dumb decision that wasn't made by the blustering Ford Brothers and their obtuse allies. Now I think this need could only be met by retrofitting the present underground Sheppard for LRT to run LRT from Malvern to Downsview, on the surface west of Yonge and east of the 404. Wouldn't think there'd be money to take a subway from Downsview to Yonge anymore than there's money to take a subway from Fairview to the Scarborough City Centre. Just more proposal clutter.

 

[BMO]

Lrt on a number of routes saves more gas then subway on one route.

Not if the the subway line will have higher ridership (25M more riders per yr) and a larger proportion of ppl serviced by it, use it. (smaller population serviced, yet higher ridership). It's also been shown that a completed Sheppard subway and Eglinton underground would have larger GHG reductions http://www.blogto.com/city/2012/02/how_does_each_toronto_transit_plan_stack_up/. The catch is that the subway line would cost more. The argument could then be brought up that building more LRT with the extra it would cost to build the complete subway plan would reduce GHGs, and maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But the fact still stands that the average speed of an LRT line is still substantially slower than a subway, and moderately faster than a bus (although some express buses are fairly close, due to fewer stops).

So in essence, ONE subway route will have less GHGs than one LRT route (better environmental benefits on any particular route, but at higher cost). But ONE subway route of 27km obviously would not be able to compare with a whole 144km of LRT system (for instance). To be honest though, building a whole system of trolley buses on every route in the city would have better environmental effects than LRT probably, and serve more people, but it all comes down to a balance of time savings, cost and environmental impacts.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The panel is supporting LRT. Option #2 is that if Council wants a subway, it needs to have the passenger demand. Simply going to Vic Park won't create the kind of demand necessary. However, connecting to Downsview will get the numbers closer. The Provincial and Federal money on the table doesn't get us there, but pitching Toronto's 1/3rd via parking taxes will.

EDIT: To clarify, the stretch of Sheppard between Yonge and Downsivew wouldn't add enough demand to justify the subway -- the current residential neighbourhoods there would have to be razed to create the density, which isn't an option -- however, the panel is considering a different option where Sheppard would become one of two branches of the YUS. Some trains would go to York U, others would go to Vic Park. This option wouldn't require an expensive Downsview station reconfiguration with an additional platform. During construction of the York U extension, a split in the track would be built to allow some trains to go next to Downsview Park station and others would turn into a new Sheppard tunnel with the next stop being Bathurst. Riders that need to switch would simply get off the train and wait on the same platform for the next one going their way.

Very intriguing, I think I proposed something similar (not that I want to take credit) a couple of years ago. If Sheppard W were interlined with the York extension they could run two routes out of VCC, one southbound to Union and one eastbound to Sheppard.

 

[sixrings]

Not if the the subway line will have higher ridership (25M more riders per yr) and a larger proportion of ppl serviced by it, use it. (smaller population serviced, yet higher ridership). It's also been shown that a completed Sheppard subway and Eglinton underground would have larger GHG reductions http://www.blogto.com/city/2012/02/how_does_each_toronto_transit_plan_stack_up/. The catch is that the subway line would cost more. The argument could then be brought up that building more LRT with the extra it would cost to build the complete subway plan would reduce GHGs, and maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But the fact still stands that the average speed of an LRT line is still substantially slower than a subway, and moderately faster than a bus (although some express buses are fairly close, due to fewer stops).

So in essence, ONE subway route will have less GHGs than one LRT route (better environmental benefits on any particular route, but at higher cost). But ONE subway route of 27km obviously would not be able to compare with a whole 144km of LRT system (for instance). To be honest though, building a whole system of trolley buses on every route in the city would have better environmental effects than LRT probably, and serve more people, but it all comes down to a balance of time savings, cost and environmental impacts.

Pretty sure those subway riders would be taking a bus to get to the subway.

 

[BMO]

Pretty sure those subway riders would be taking a bus to get to the subway.

Pretty sure ppl who won't take the LRT will take a car...