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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

Inkarnate said:
That's weird... I've been on the Sheppard Subway many times, both on and off-peak. Not once have I seen a subway car filled at any of those times. Not even near it. Seems like low ridership to me...
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Sheppard subway can get pretty full in rush hour. Remember that extending it will make it a lot more useful for 401 drivers. Also I think that the main thing encouraging people to use the Sheppard subway will e congestion not fuel prices. With high fuel efficiency cars fuel prices would have to go up 5x to get people to stop driving. However if 401 has non stop traffic jams all day long, that will encourage people to take the subway to avoid the traffic jams.

Also the idea of interlining Sheppard with YUS seems strange to me. I think it would be better to keep it separate, and add provision for westward extension to Jane. Interlining would also mean no station on Sheppard line at Downsview and force people going to York U to transfer at Wilson.
 
dunkalunk said:
There would need to be 2 separate stations at Downsview being perpendicular to eachother whether or not a Sheppard West subway were interlined with the Spadina.
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Why? That's not what MetroMan threw out. You simply use the same platform (just like all the other stations south of Downsview), and put the spur NORTH of the existing station ... which does require a bit of a curve back on itself underneath Wilson Heights ... but it's not that extreme compared to some of the odd things you see in other cities.
 
Thanks for that tip Metroman.

There is a certain elegance about the solution you mentioned not purely from the technical aspect that most people on this thread are discussing, but in terms of the far more important diplomatic and political reality. As someone who is not really pro-subway or pro-lrt and doesn't really understand transit the compromise you suggest is completely sellable to me.

My fear however is that our good Mayor is not just playing the fool, he is genuine. I think Stintz and the Mayor don't even speak the same language and she plays the game at a level he doesn't comprehend. It's like Stintz says "Mayor the door is green" (hint, hint, wink, wink, I'm giving you this on a silver patter) and the Mayor is like "The door isn't green it's yellow! How dare you say the door is green! Your fired!". And Stintz holds her head in her hands and feels like crying.
 
MetroMan said:
To clarify, the stretch of Sheppard between Yonge and Downsivew wouldn't add enough demand to justify the subway -- the current residential neighbourhoods there would have to be razed to create the density, which isn't an option -- however, the panel is considering a different option where Sheppard would become one of two branches of the YUS. Some trains would go to York U, others would go to Vic Park. This option wouldn't require an expensive Downsview station reconfiguration with an additional platform. During construction of the York U extension, a split in the track would be built to allow some trains to go next to Downsview Park station and others would turn into a new Sheppard tunnel with the next stop being Bathurst. Riders that need to switch would simply get off the train and wait on the same platform for the next one going their way.
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That's very innovative. Many subway lines around the world use that concept with the most obvious example being New York City. This practically ends that sterile debate about Sheppard's ridership and makes it easier to extend it to STC in the future.

Trains from Scarborough could go downtown in the morning rush hour and short turn at Downsview off peak etc... There are so many possibilities and ways to run that line.

I don't think a "Sheppard-Jane station" is a priority
 
Ansem said:
Very Clever!

By making Sheppard a Spadina Branch, you bypass the Ridership issue but can the existing subway Stations on Sheppard accommodate the TR?
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Yes. A full length platform was roughed in at all Sheppard stations. I get the impression that cars going to Vic Park would be shorter and then expanded one day when the passenger demand is there.
 
Interesting proposal to extend Sheppard two stops in each direction and interline with the Spadina line...

I'd go for it. Hopefully it happens. Would be great for people in the northeast to avoid Bloor-Yonge.
 
andrewpmk said:
Why no subway stop at Birchmount?
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I agree, what use is a fast non-stop subway if it doesn't stop anywhere near where you want to go.
Even the Yonge line could use some extra infill stations,
-- between Eglinton and Lawrence (at Blythwood Rd?)
-- between Lawrence and York Mills (at Melrose Ave, Teddington Park Ave?)
 
nfitz said:
Why? That's not what MetroMan threw out. You simply use the same platform (just like all the other stations south of Downsview), and put the spur NORTH of the existing station ... which does require a bit of a curve back on itself underneath Wilson Heights ... but it's not that extreme compared to some of the odd things you see in other cities.
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Like the Lionel-Groulx Metro Station in Montreal.
Both lines (Green and Orange) cross perpendicularly at Lionel-Groulx on the standard metro map, but they are actually parallel when they cross thanks to major curves on the green line.
http://www.metrodemontreal.com/orange/lionelgroulx/indexg.html
http://www.stm.info/info/centre-ville2011.pdf
http://www.stm.info/info/plans.htm
35ksv93.png

http://i44.tinypic.com/35ksv93.png
 
MetroMan said:
Yes. A full length platform was roughed in at all Sheppard stations. I get the impression that cars going to Vic Park would be shorter and then expanded one day when the passenger demand is there.
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Could the stations be left short, and the first and last cars not stop at the platform. Going West to Southbound, those cars would be empty when it switched to the Spadina line. For North to Eastbound, some signage would be required to notify passengers in the front and last cars that they do not service the Sheppard line. If ridership grows, or if one particular station is exceedingly busy, that station alone could be extended.

I always wondered if this concept could be used on the existing lines. For example, extending the platform length by one car (25m) at maybe 4 stations (Eglinton, Yonge-Bloor, Union, St. George) and you could run 7 car trains instead of 6 and increase capacity by 17%.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Very intriguing, I think I proposed something similar (not that I want to take credit) a couple of years ago. If Sheppard W were interlined with the York extension they could run two routes out of VCC, one southbound to Union and one eastbound to Sheppard.
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At first glance, this is how I understood the proposal - and I imagined every second train being short turned here and not at York U. It seems both a curve from Sheppard Westbound to Spadina Southbound - that would have to utilize the existing Downsview Station - or a curve from Sheppard Westbound to Spadina Northbound would be somewhat difficult, and would have to begin some 750m East of the Allen. Unless a tight curve would be allowed.
 
Plan seems like an interesting idea. The problem comes in the actual operation of this scheme.

Interlining requires the trains to be on-time for it to work properly, otherwise delays will form if 2 trains try to merge onto the Spadina segment at the same time. One only needs to look back at why the TTC abandoned interlining on the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge-University lines. It is very hard for trains to run on-time today, due to all the small events that cascade delays.

In the far future, both lines will have to operate separately again when frequency needs to be increased on the Sheppard line. So provisions for this need to be planned for as well.

Does the funding for this plan require Finch to go BRT? I doubt taxes on parking and reallocating Sheppard LRT funding can pay for this whole plan. Some money must have been taken from Finch LRT as well.
 
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I think too many people obsess too much over transfers. It's not worth trying to come up with madly expensive, complicated, and operationally difficult schemes just to save a small number of people the indignity of having to make a transfer.

In a grid based system, you will have transfers. It works better that way because it allows for more frequent service.

Regarding this scheme, any track changes will need to be fully grade separated if its to be used in regular service. I don't think any of the track geometry north of Sheppard takes this into account and hopefully never gets changed to allow it.
 
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