TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[muller877]

Not sure how redirecting TTC funding to give a tax credit would improve congestion, since they'd have to cut service levels to make up for the loss of subsidy. I also don't see how a municipal tax credit would help either given that most low-income torontonians don't own property.

In general, I think creating separate passes for low-income people is a bad idea for several reasons.

1. We should be lowering the price of all transit fares rather than some users. I mean, in general, it's sad that our operating subsidy is so low that people can't even afford *bus passes*.
2. The city isn't in much of a position to perform means-testing. It is much more efficient for the province to deal with social assistance issues like this, rather than introduce bureaucracy.
3. This program is rife with potential for abuse.
4. If there is any physical difference in passes it serves to distinguish and shame poverty.
5. It would increase the fares for other classes of users who may also struggle with the costs of transit (e.g. students).

Add a 6th reason. The wealthy can afford to drive/park in Toronto. You actually have to give a LARGER incentive for the wealthier to take transit than the poor (the only reason they take it other than price is for convenience...and transit is rarely quicker than driving). Simple cost-benefit.

If the purpose of this subsidy is to convince drivers to take transit, the wealthy should get a HIGHER subsidy (i.e. cheaper fares) than the low-income earners.

Of course if this proposal is just a thinly veiled attempt at income distribution, than by all means give the low-income earners a higher incentive. But it will mean more people driving and less people taking transit.

This proposal also fails to identify where low-income and the wealthy work. The wealthy normally work near transit nodes (i.e. business district near the subway) wheras low-income quite often work away from transit (industrial zones). Of course there are cases where it is the opposite so just speaking in generalities.

If a low-income earner works/live near transit they more than likely do not own a car and the transit pass is already far cheaper than owning a car. If they do not live and work near transit (or have a job where the need a car) price is quite often not the deciding factor.


Now, if they are talking about low-income earners who do not have a job (i.e. welfare, disability, etc) than that is a seperate question altogether.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I thought bus bays were being slowly removed anyway as they tend to cause more problems than they solve. Mostly because drivers won't let the buses merge back into traffic.

The TTC would prefer the "queue-jump" lane.

See the Transit City Bus Plan, from 2009, at this link.

They would like the far-side stop, if only they had real transit priority at the traffic signals.

 

[diminutive]

Add a 6th reason. The wealthy can afford to drive/park in Toronto. You actually have to give a LARGER incentive for the wealthier to take transit than the poor (the only reason they take it other than price is for convenience...and transit is rarely quicker than driving). Simple cost-benefit.

If the purpose of this subsidy is to convince drivers to take transit, the wealthy should get a HIGHER subsidy (i.e. cheaper fares) than the low-income earners.

I would agree with your premises here, but I think your conclusion is off because you're wrongly assuming the number one priority is to juice TTC ridership. To me, the main point of these public subsidy programs is to address socioeconomic inequality.

Of course if this proposal is just a thinly veiled attempt at income distribution, than by all means give the low-income earners a higher incentive. But it will mean more people driving and less people taking transit.

I think they proposal's proponents are quite explicit that it is an attempt at income redistribution. The petition starts with a vignette of a woman who has to choose between food and TTC fare; clearly, the intent of this idea is to transfer resources to low income Torontonians.

 

[aquateam]

In fairness, I just said 'transit credit' not 'tax credit.' I assume there would be some kind of mechanism to get the credits to low-income Torontonians.

It would reduce congestion by reducing demand. If the subsidy was reduced, TTC fares would rise. Higher fares -> lower demand -> less congestion.

Higher fares > fewer people take transit > people still leave their homes > more people take cars instead > more vehicles to transport the same number of people > more vehicles on the road > more congestion.

1. For any given amount of subsidy, we'd see the most social welfare gains if funds were transferred to those with the least income. There's no real welfare gains from making sure a high-income Torontonian has the benefit of cheaper fares.

Lower income Torontonians are disproportionately dependant on public transit, so spending on public transit is inherently progressive, even if you were to fund it regressively like with a sales tax. Owning a car is still much more expensive than owning a bus pass.

2. Would it really be that hard? I'd agree that, ideally, the Province/Feds would implement some kind of low-income transit benefit, but I don't see why this program would be especially difficult to administer. We already run targeted metropass programs (students/seniors).

The province/feds actually know your income, via income taxes. The city only knows how much your house is worth. Senior passes are pretty easy to administer, you just need ID with your DOB. Student passes are a bit of a pain, but universities take on some of the overhead.

3. What is this, Ronald Reagan hour? While in theory any program is ripe for abuse, evidence shows that personal transfers are amongst the most difficult programs to abuse.

Ronald Reagan hour? This is the Ford Nation gravy hunt hour . I'm just saying that I see plenty of people using student passes who shouldn't be, and that I can imagine schemes where people buy these discounted passes in bulk and sell them out, rewarding fraudsters and depriving the TTC of income.

5. Students are already a class of user who benefit from discounted passes. Excluding users who already benefit from discounted passes, who would loose? Upper income people, obviously, but that's the point of redistribution.

"Upper" income is a relative term. Depending on what proportion of transit users benefit from this new low-income pass, does that mean 80% of users? 95% of transit users? We're not talking about the 1% here, wealthy people drive and aren't buying any metropasses. The more generous your criteria is for low income, the bigger cut you'll be taking out of the TTC's revenue and the more you're driving up the already sky-high cost of a transit pass.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

If you want to give more money to low income people, there already a myriad of programs in place that could be made more generous instead of creating a whole new program to administer. For example, the federal Working Income Tax Benefit can provide up to approx. $1800 in cash for low income workers, more than enough to cover a Metropass every month for a year.

One of the ideas behind student/senior passes is that they tend to be used more at off-peak times and/or those users don't follow typical peak commuting patterns (i.e., suburbs to downtown), but even then I think it would make more sense to offer off-peak only and zone fares that include a discount for travel within areas that are less busy. For example, you could have an Scarborough only off-peak (excluding 8-9AM and 5-6PM) pass that would be cheaper than the current Metropass, while a city-wide anytime pass would be more expensive to reflect the increased cost of adding new capacity to routes during peak periods.

London does this really well with the Oyster card - basically pay as you go + unlimited passes with a whole range of different fares for peak/off-peak, subway/bus & streetcar and travel through different zones. Of course, they also have special rates for seniors, unemployed jobseekers, veterans, and trades apprentices, but the flip side is that standard adult fares are probably higher than they otherwise would be.

 

[StatGeek]

Christina Blizzard has a so-so article

1. Stop arguing and do something.
2. Charge by distance travelled.
3. Scrap Metrolinx.
4. A better way to get politics out of transit would be to sell off the TTC.
5. Wynne seemed to wobble on her commitment to build subways to Scarborough recently.
6. Don’t stop building subways.
7. Don’t implement a congestion charge as they have in London.
8. Downtown Toronto is not the centre of the transit universe. People need to get around the entire GTA.
9. While politicians of all stripes and at all levels squabble, the travelling public are squeezed into overcrowded buses, streetcars and subways.
10. Again, for the politicians: Make a decision. Base it on facts, not emotion.

I agree with #2 and #9. But I am confused with her #4, the privatization of the TTC is a generic term Conservatives say, "Hey lets treat it like a business". The problem with that is that it counteracts a bunch of her other points, especially the building subway at Scarborough which Ford pushed he will get "private investment and nobody in the private industry wanted to touch it.

Tell me a company that will be willing to make as big as in investment as building a Scarborough subway. Which most think it will not return a profit for 30 years. They would be laughed out of the stock holding meeting.

I also find her #8 "Downtown not the centre of universe" We already have some sort of "private transportation" they are called taxi's and there's a reason why it much easier to grab a cab downtown than in the suburb. It's because these private industry know that's where the money is and where you can get more business. Why wouldn't a private transportation for Subways not have the same formula.

Right-wing writers are kind of funny, they keep saying "Treat government like a business" and complain about "socialism" and treating everybody the same. But if they get less of a service because it's not profitable to do it in their area, they complain.

 

[Electrify]

Is that really a problem now that buses have right-of-way to merge back into traffic? I really haven't noticed it being a big problem since the law changed.

If buses had cameras to tag drivers who fail to yield for the bus, we could fund a subway within a week. When I had a car, there were at least a few times where I was honked at by the imbecile behind me for leaving room for the bus to merge.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If buses had cameras to tag drivers who fail to yield for the bus, we could fund a subway within a week. When I had a car, there were at least a few times where I was honked at by the imbecile behind me for leaving room for the bus to merge.

So true. If I'm driving, and behind the bus signalling to turn into my lane, I let them in. Sometimes I would move into the left (fast, allegedly) lane, if I see the bus stopped in the bus lay-by.

If the bus has its four-way flashers going, I have to assume it will be there a l-o-n-g time (IE. breakdown, change of drivers, or scheduled wait), and can make a right turn around the stopped bus.

 

[newearthling]

New campaign by the city's planning department about transit. Feelingcongested.ca

[video=youtube;B3TKnhtTlmw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3TKnhtTlmw[/video]

 

[M II A II R II K]

Full Size: http://www.blogto.com/upload/2014/07/20131026-ttcmap-large.jpg

 

[ehlow]

Full Size: http://www.blogto.com/upload/2014/07/20131026-ttcmap-large.jpg

Totally agree with Black Camel, Holy Chuck, Boar & Falasqa. LOL @ Ikea & "Bus Terminal Diner"

 

[Johnny Au]

Zito's Marketplace is not a restaurant. Examples of restaurants near Glencairn station should be any one of the following: Li Cheng's, Paul's Tomato Pie, Fat Phill's, etc.

 

[salsa]

My best friend's uncle owns Paul's Tomato Pie.

 

[Johnny Au]

My best friend's uncle owns Paul's Tomato Pie.

What a small world.

I like the panzerotti from Paul's Tomato Pie. They even give out extra sauce for dipping.

Did you know that Paul's Tomato Pie is Mike Colle's favourite pizza parlour?

Well then, if I were blog.to, I would use Paul's Tomato Pie instead of Zito's, since Zito's is not a place for dining (it is just an Italian grocery store) and Paul's Tomato Pie is actually good quality for such inexpensive pizzas.

 

[ehlow]

What a small world.

I like the panzerotti from Paul's Tomato Pie. They even give out extra sauce for dipping.

Did you know that Paul's Tomato Pie is Mike Colle's favourite pizza parlour?

Well then, if I were blog.to, I would use Paul's Tomato Pie instead of Zito's, since Zito's is not a place for dining (it is just an Italian grocery store) and Paul's Tomato Pie is actually good quality for such inexpensive pizzas.

Alright, I'm going to go there and try it on your recommendation, Johnny

Keep up the good work on the TBM tracker updates by the way.