TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

Of course it makes the vehicle 'illegal'. It'll be breaking the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act where requires that all transit services and facilities be accessible by 2025.
If you can be sued or fined for something, you are doing something unlawful.

How would not meeting the current goal of having the LRT vehicles accessible by 2018 break the Ontarians with Disabilities Act?

Who knows where the government will be in 2023. If we are in a depression, and the Ontario government is faced with buying municipalities new vehicles, or making the Ontarians with Disablitiies Act disappear, what do you think would happen?

I've never looked at the Act before - but where in it - http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_01o32_e.htm does it say that they WILL make ALL transit vehicles accessible by 2025? They certainly aren't making all subway entrances accessible, just some. And they certainly aren't making escalators accessible. Would the act be met if every second vehicle was accesible (and there was a proper schedule)?

 

[andomano]

How would not meeting the current goal of having the LRT vehicles accessible by 2018 break the Ontarians with Disabilities Act?

Simply put, that's not what I said.

From the "ACCESSIBLE TRANSIT SERVICES PLAN:
2007 STATUS REPORT"

- the new Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, 2005 (AODA) requires that
all transit services and facilities be accessible by 2025. The TTC’s current plans, as
outlined in this report, will meet and exceed this goal;


The overall purpose of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act is to make public sector organizations accessible to all.

Who knows where the government will be in 2023. If we are in a depression, and the Ontario government is faced with buying municipalities new vehicles, or making the Ontarians with Disablitiies Act disappear, what do you think would happen?

You're telling me that if the government becomes too poor, that human rights go out the window?

 

[drum118]

How would not meeting the current goal of having the LRT vehicles accessible by 2018 break the Ontarians with Disabilities Act?

Who knows where the government will be in 2023. If we are in a depression, and the Ontario government is faced with buying municipalities new vehicles, or making the Ontarians with Disablitiies Act disappear, what do you think would happen?

I've never looked at the Act before - but where in it - http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_01o32_e.htm does it say that they WILL make ALL transit vehicles accessible by 2025? They certainly aren't making all subway entrances accessible, just some. And they certainly aren't making escalators accessible. Would the act be met if every second vehicle was accesible (and there was a proper schedule)?

Within MTO, they want all vehicles accessible in Ontario by 2012. They are only allow 6 years extension on rebuilt high floors at best. "All buses funded by MTO "Have to be 100% low Floor when tender/bought" This is from a meeting back in 2006 with the Ministry.

TTC will be 100% come 2010 as well a number of other systems. I forget what system it is, but it will be 100% this year

The only exception is TTC Streetcars.

Even VIA coaches have to comply.

The ODA is weak when it comes to transit as it only require one elevator per platform/station when in fact you need 2.

How do you make escalators accessible????

TTC having low floor LRT's by 2018 is only haft the problem solve for the ODA, as how do you get accessibility riders onto the low floor LRT's within the existing system??? You still got 6-8 inch separation between the road and the floor depending on final design.

""NO"" government is going to scarp the ODA by 2025 as it will be the fastest way to loose office. It is a Charter of Right issue that "any" government would loose if they try kill it.

""ALL"" Buildings must be 100% Accessibility with few exceptions. New York City cannot provide access to 20% of it's station and a number of building under the ADA and had got permission not to do it because of the structural problems. The US time frame is 2018.

 

[Railization]

Escalators aren't accessible and cannot be made accessible, since they were never intended to be accessible.

I've heard about some of the ideas TTC is grappling with to make the exsiting system accessible. Among the options is changing the elevation of certain lanes at certain points.

 

[ShonTron]

Even VIA coaches have to comply.

As VIA is a federal agency, the Ontario regulations don't apply. There's separate federal regulations and federal courts that are responsible.

How do you make escalators accessible????

You don't. At least escalators provide "easier access" level of mobility to those with some mobility issues. Elevators provide accessibility for everyone at a poor level of efficiency.

 

[Railization]

Elevators provide accessibility for everyone at a poor level of efficiency.

poor level of efficiency is right.

Ideally, if subways could done very shallow, access would be by ramps. Not only are those accessible design, they're universal design. They also don't break down (even in winter, salt might actually be GOOD for them)!

 

[nfitz]

You're telling me that if the government becomes too poor, that human rights go out the window?

Simply put - yes.

I think you could study human rights around the world, correlate to poverty, and you'd find a pretty strong relationship.

Escalators aren't accessible and cannot be made accessible, since they were never intended to be accessible.

I've heard about some of the ideas TTC is grappling with to make the exsiting system accessible. Among the options is changing the elevation of certain lanes at certain points.

We could rip them all out and replace them with moving ramps.

So how are we making all those stair cases accessible?

 

[ShonTron]

You'd need very shallow moving ramps to make them accessible. I'm sure you've been to the Dufferin Mall or Square One Woolco stores, where they have "movators" that allow strollers and shopping carts on them, and those are specially built. When Zellers took over the Eaton's stores at Square One and Bramalea City Centre, they went with extra elevators to move the shopping carts rather than rip the store apart for movators. I've also used movator-type devices in multi-level grocery stores in China.

Even then, I still think wheelchairs are supposed to use elevators for safety.

If you can find space and grades to make regular ramps viable (they need very low grades), that is ideal, but won't work in most retrofits. Keele Station perhaps.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Wouldn't take much work at Keele, as they're still there:

Link: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5118-02.jpg

 

[Towered]

It would be nice if Keele had a streetcar line, both north and south of Bloor.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It would be nice if Keele had a streetcar line, both north and south of Bloor.

Had is the key word. Keele Street technically did have a streetcar line, from Dundas Street up to Weston Road (just north of St. Clair).

 

[Second_in_pie]

It would be nice if Keele had a streetcar line, both north and south of Bloor.

It should be next on the line for Transit City. I have to admit, I find LRT a good transit system of the future. Roads should go back to the people, and LRT is a good way to do that, if you ask me.

Hopefully if (or when) the downtown streetcars get their right of ways (or shut of streets or whatever,) articulated streetcars would be more welcome on all the lines. I honestly can't wait for the new streetcars

 

[Railization]

I suggested the TTC use Keele instead of Jane. Keele is a lot easier to work with until Eglinton. South of Eglinton, it's gets a little more complicated, but the net amount of tunneling would still be less than Jane. The route wouldn't end up at Keele station, but Dundas West.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The only problem is that Jane has a much higher ridership, and the TTC is trying to prove that their LRTs are good for everywhere (where they aren't really.) I'd love to see a route on Keele myself, and it's coming in Part 2... if TC lasts that long.

Do you think if the TTC decided to use a totally separated right of way... do you think the TTC would be using the streetcars that are coming now? It would certainly be pretty sad if they were that cheap.
I ask this, because I'm right now fantasizing about a Finch Crosstown LRT, which should probably be in the transit city thread, but I think if a totally seperated TC line happened, something like The Talent must be used instead of a streetcar. Then we could call it "The T-Train"

 

[Railization]

What's sad about our current fleet is that they're 30 years old and STILL no order has formally been placed - the contract has yet to be awarded. The streetcars we have now are actually capable of going 100km/h+... the track network, however, isn't. The TTC was originally going to service the SRT with our current streetcars. So I think that would answer your question.