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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Based on what I have been reading on the Phoenix line, ridership has exceed the expectation numbers all ready with calls for more lines. Business are jumping on the band wagon and want it on their street. The line open the last week in Dec 2008.

This is not the fist time where ridership has exceeded numbers in the first year of operation for a new LRT line in the US.

Well, that's not really the full story.

For starters, there will never ever be another LRT line in Phoenix with that kind of ridership (which is not all that high, if you look at the full picture- but more on that later). Not only did they hit all the major, centralized trip generators in a very decentralized city, but they basically picked the only route where transit is time competitive with the car at rush hour, and the only route where the majority of people are likely to walk to their destination, either for financial reasons (students at ASU) or due to spatial considerations (downtown office workers). Every other LRT extension they can ever conceive of in Phoenix from now on will have lower ridership than the starter line.

Secondly, the ridership numbers (35,000 approx.) are grossly inflated by the fact that parallel bus service was axed to make way for the LRT line. There used to be a fantastic bus service that ran every 10 minutes during the day and every 5 minutes at rush hour that got cut to make way for an LRT that runs every 15 minutes during the day and every 8-10 at rush hour. It was a tremendous service that ran directly to airport terminals and skirted the perimeter of the ASU campus rather than just having two stops at the northern end of the campus property. Secondly, ASU students themselves lost a very convenient (and free) shuttle bus service between the downtown and Tempe campuses that traveled directly between the two points without stopping. Many of the riders on the light rail today are students who have classes at both campuses. This loss was, I'll admit, mediated to some extent by the increased frequency of the light rail over the bus, but the time savings and the direct routing that the bus had formerly offered was certainly missed by many.

Finally, no discussion about LRT in Phoenix is complete without discussing all the bus services that were cut to balance the transit budget. Basically, all bus service after 10:30 PM was eliminated, in part to pay for the high cost of upkeeping the LRT. When you consider this, there is a high social cost to paying for a fancy new tram, not only a high economic cost.


To do this, Dundas needs to be LRT first as well getting the missing section for 512 built from Jane St to Kipling where it will meet Mississaiuga line. Sad part, will not happen for at least 25 years at the rate things are going for both cities as well Metrolinx calling for BRT.

Following the example of Phoenix, I would not advocate for an LRT in Mississauga. There is no need to build a new technology in a city and hire new people to maintain and service rail vehicles in a new facility. One thing Phoenix did well (before LRT) that is echoed in Mississauga is that this extremely suburban city had a decent understanding of how to run a bus service, because that was the technology it had used exclusively. I think that, with just a little financial input and some creative planning, Mississauga can make BRT work extremely well for them, both on Hurontario and on Dundas. Any long distance nodal transportation is better served with electric regional rail service, anyway.
 
I'm not overly familiar with Phoenix, but I find it is this kind of transit "planning" which gives public transit a bad name in the USA. Spending 1.4 billion USD in order to transport 30k people a day, who according Hipster Duck have been basically forced to take it, and calling it a "success" is a bit of stretch. Municipalities keep building these LRT lines everyone knows aren't justified based on ridership and then calling it a success when they don't loose quite as much money as originally thought. It is a government sponsored pyramid scheme to boost land values along the corridor, not transit planning. The worst example was Cincinatti planning to bring back trams, not LRT, trams.
 
It is a government sponsored pyramid scheme to boost land values along the corridor, not transit planning. The worst example was Cincinatti planning to bring back trams, not LRT, trams.

Whoaccio, there are terrific articles by academics that support the theory that rapid transit planning in the US is dominated by core-city private interests, specifically to do what you said: boost land values and to serve downtown office workers in ill-thought downtown revitalization schemes.

But, hey, who needs to listen to what professors of political economy think when you've got amateur railfans?
 
I would love to see the new streetcars and LRTs showcase Bombardier's PRIMOVE caternary free concept. It would certainly add a certain degree of sophistication to have such unique, and world class technology made by a Canadian company, showcased in Canada's largest city.

That being said, I do also believe in a competitive bid so that Toronto's taxpayers get value for money. Here's hoping Bombardier bids low!
 
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I would love to see the new streetcars and LRTs showcase Bombardier's PRIMOVE caternary free concept. It would certainly add a certain degree of sophistication to have such unique, and world class technology made by a Canadian company, showcased in Canada's largest city.

That being said, I do also believe in a competitive bid so that Toronto's taxpayers get value for money. Here's hoping Bombardier bids low!

Isn't that what they said about ICTS? Toronto's LRT network shouldn't be some gimmick to showcase some new technology that might not even work here due to the climate. It should be functional and as such we should look to the examples set by other cities around the world who have created functional systems. No point in reinventing the wheel just because there's a new technology out that some people think looks cooler.
 
Isn't that what they said about ICTS? Toronto's LRT network shouldn't be some gimmick to showcase some new technology that might not even work here due to the climate. It should be functional and as such we should look to the examples set by other cities around the world who have created functional systems.

I disagree Bombardier being a Canadian company and Toronto being one of the few North America cities through-out the last 50 years that operated a well functional streetcar system when many citys scraped theres, should be a model city for this new technology.

No point in reinventing the wheel just because there's a new technology out that some people think looks cooler.

Check it out

http://netnewsledger.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2263&Itemid=26
 
Isn't that what they said about ICTS? Toronto's LRT network shouldn't be some gimmick to showcase some new technology that might not even work here due to the climate. It should be functional and as such we should look to the examples set by other cities around the world who have created functional systems. No point in reinventing the wheel just because there's a new technology out that some people think looks cooler.

I didn't say they should be awarded the job outright. I said I hope they win cause of the lowest bid. And I do think PRIMOVE would be great for Toronto. Getting rid of the catenary and all the associated overhead paraphernalia would add to the aesthetics of the city particularly along streetcar lines in the core....Queen, Spadina, etc.
 

Taking away the overhead lines that power light rail is a possible step toward hydrail powered train engines. The Premier of Ontario announced in Thunder Bay, in September 2007, that Ontario has entered into talks with Bombardier. "Ontario Liberals think Ontarians can - and should - lead the development of hydrogen alternatives for the world," stated Premier Dalton McGuinty.

I like innovative ideas, but come on! Fuel cell GO Trains are a vote-buying gimmick chosen in the name of looking cool, when there's a much cheaper and more reliable alternative: overhead wires and EMUs.

You'd think we'd learnt this from the Scarborough RT fiasco, but apparently not.
 
I would love to see the new streetcars and LRTs showcase Bombardier's PRIMOVE caternary free concept. It would certainly add a certain degree of sophistication to have such unique, and world class technology made by a Canadian company, showcased in Canada's largest city.

That being said, I do also believe in a competitive bid so that Toronto's taxpayers get value for money. Here's hoping Bombardier bids low!

First US City to get it would be Washington DC since overhead cannot be used in the first place. It had/has a system like this in the past.
 
Take a look at Seattle's streetcar at this video from StreetFilms.org.
While the Seattle streetcars are not 100% low-floor and are smaller than the ones we could be getting, they have some features that the new cars could have.
Seattle-Streetcar-Opening-D.jpg
 
If you go into the gallery, the photo in the second row third from the left is the proposed design for Toronto, with the obligatory 504 King route sign and CN Tower in the background.
 
Take a look at Seattle's streetcar at this video from StreetFilms.org. While the Seattle streetcars are not 100% low-floor and are smaller than the ones we could be getting, they have some features that the new cars could have.

Actually, after going to the Seattle streetcar website (click on "Depot Sponsorship"), I'm not sure we would want all of the same features:

Imagine thousands of riders hearing every 15 minutes, 15 hours of everyday, "Next stop, the (YOUR BUSINESS NAME HERE) station at Westlake and Mercer!"
 
It's a little misleading, to put it lightly. A 504 King car will never be that long. The legacy fleet is restricted to a length of 30m because of existing stations such as Spadina, Broadview, and Dundas West.
 

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