TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

Im curious to know if this policy applies to us as well...

TTC? It does apply. They take the lowest compliant bid.

Bidding rules vary by organization. Some toss out the lowest bid. Some go with the best technical bid, and cost is only part of the scoring.

Personally if there are two very close bids, and the higher one is much better, I take it. But in the private sphere, we can make it up as we go along ...

 

[drum118]

TTC? It does apply. They take the lowest compliant bid.

Bidding rules vary by organization. Some toss out the lowest bid. Some go with the best technical bid, and cost is only part of the scoring.

Personally if there are two very close bids, and the higher one is much better, I take it. But in the private sphere, we can make it up as we go along ...

What makes you say the higher of 2 bids is the best route to go with?? How do you know its the better of the 2 unless you are looking at the technical side??

You need to look at the track records of bidders as well the price. Some bidders can low ball a project and will try to make extra moneys by asking for extra money when things don't conform with plans and specs. If there are changes, they over charge on those changes. Some bidders have poor performance recorders to the point of being removed from projects.

Then, in some cases its who you know that gets you the contract as well being a favour bidder to x company.

TTC does take the lowest bidder, but how they handle the various crossing of the i's & t's is something else. If x company miss place any i's & t's in the private sector, they get a chance to fix it and only then will it be seen as a true bid. Some cases the low bider ends up not being low with the fixing of the i's & t's.

 

[smallspy]

TTC? It does apply. They take the lowest compliant bid.

Not necessarily. The TTC's bidding rules allow them to toss out the lowest compliant bid for a variety of different reasons should they feel that they need to. They've certainly done so in the past.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

What makes you say the higher of 2 bids is the best route to go with??

I wasn't. My point is that if a contractor is generally incompetent, and messes up his bid with a number that's too low for him to be able to afford to deliver ... then that's always going to win.

How do you know its the better of the 2 unless you are looking at the technical side??

They do look at the technical side. Difficult to do though. And doesn't catch pricing errors.

You need to look at the track records of bidders as well the price.

They do that tool. And Bombardier's previous performance was good for both TTC and MTA. Past behaviour isn't always a reliable predictor of future behaviour.

Not necessarily. The TTC's bidding rules allow them to toss out the lowest compliant bid for a variety of different reasons should they feel that they need to. They've certainly done so in the past.

As far as I know, bids are tossed for being non-compliant on safety, non-compliant on previous performance, non-compliant on insurance issues. non-compliant on completeness of submission. I can't see how you'd toss a compliant bid under the current rules, without risking litigation (though presumably if the vendor knows they erroneously underbid it, they might be happy NOT to have it selected! )

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

From my understanding the TTC went with Bombardier because both companies had an established relationship and they didn't need to build a facility to assemble the streetcars near Toronto to go along with the built in Canad rules at the time of purchase. All the other birders at the time apparently didn't even have facilitates in north america. If the other companies had facilities available in North America there may have been more consideration given to them. I think the TTC figured that since Bombardier was well established in Canada and was already supplying the T1's and the Toronto Rockets as well as cars for Go transit thath they would be a good option and could get them done on time. Nobody expected there to be a strike or for there to be problems with parts coming from other places. As I've said before that could happen to any manufacturer.

 

[nfitz]

???

There were two compliant bids. And Bombardier was the lowest (at about $1 billion, compared to about $1.5 billion for the other bidder). They may well had the lowest bid because they had the pre-existing facility - the existence of facilities wasn't a direct factor in the decision.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

They may well had the lowest bid because they had the pre-existing facility - the existence of facilities wasn't a direct factor in the decision.

It may not have been a direct one but it may have been one in the back of the minds of the decision makers. It kind of makes sense to because what happens if the new facility that a company has to build runs into problems like the Lesslie Barns did. Th thing is we may never know why the TTC went with Bombardier and didn't go with another company because you can read all the bids you want but it's still people who make the choice of which to go with.

 

[nfitz]

It may not have been a direct one but it may have been one in the back of the minds of the decision makers.

What decision makers? They had 2 bidders for the final RFP. Both were compliant enough they opened the $ envelope, and Bombardier was 2/3 the price of Siemens Canada.

I think you are over-thinking this.

There was a third UK bidder in the earlier RFP - but they weren't restricted from bidding again in the final RFP as far as I know.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What decision makers? They had 2 bidders for the final RFP. Both were compliant enough they opened the $ envelope, and Bombardier was 2/3 the price of Siemens Canada.

I think you are over-thinking this.

There was a third UK bidder in the earlier RFP - but they weren't restricted from bidding again in the final RFP as far as I know.

Well someone had to pick one of the bidders. It;s not like they just looked at the price and said oh look Bombardier is cheaper we should go with them. I'm sure there were many other factors in them with what ever section of council and or the TTC that made the choice.

 

[nfitz]

.... It;s not like they just looked at the price and said oh look Bombardier is cheaper we should go with them.

That's exactly what they do. They check to see if the bids are all compliant (including technically).

And then they simply look at the price, and choose the lowest bid.

That's it.

Here's a simple example: http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...Traction_Power_Substations_Equipment_Inst.pdf

 

[rbt]

Well someone had to pick one of the bidders. It;s not like they just looked at the price and said oh look Bombardier is cheaper we should go with them.

That's exactly what the city by-laws require them to do, and it's a rather big deal when it doesn't happen (lawsuits, penalty fees, possibly even criminal charges depending on the reason).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Its like redoing your driveway. The cheapest would be gravel followed by asphalt. Interlocked or concrete would be more expensive, but would look better.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Did you know that your Canada Pension Plan (CPP) invests in both Bombardier and Siemens?

See link.

Siemens AG 11,000 shares or $2,000,000

Bombardier Inc A 494,000 shares or $1,000,000
Bombardier Inc B 3,094,000 shares or $8,000,000

The CPP even owns a minority share (10%±) of the 407.

 

[Jonny5]

Did you know that your Canada Pension Plan (CPP) invests in both Bombardier and Siemens?

See link.

Siemens AG 11,000 shares or $2,000,000

Bombardier Inc A 494,000 shares or $1,000,000
Bombardier Inc B 3,094,000 shares or $8,000,000

The CPP even owns a minority share (10%±) of the 407.

That only tells us they owned those shares on March 31, 2015. Not when they were purchased, for how much they cost, or if they still own them.

CPP owns ~40% of Highway 407 since 2010 when they bought the assets of the Australian firm Intoll Group.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder if the Ontario Registered Pension Plan (ORPP), if it actually starts up, would be investing in Bombardier and other Ontario operational companies that will work on Ontario projects. They'll have to actually make money, of course, in return. Bombardier has to make money only after delivery of the new streetcars. Still waiting for #4410.