TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[W. K. Lis]

It does when you suddenly hardline enforce a rule that hasn't been enforced for years. When you go to trial, you could call thousands of witnesses who would say that they've taken 501 many times and not once has the driver said they should take transfer. The crown would know this and know they couldn't get a conviction. It get's tossed.

Surely doing this slowly and methodically and making it clear where this is going, and establishing a clear record of warnings, and giving drivers a chance to start communicating the issue to passengers, is going to let them get a conviction when they start dishing out fines in a few week.

Suddenly? Sorry, I've been on the 501 Queen streetcar, and I have seen inspectors checking for transfers or passes. Both recently and years ago. Looks more like they are increasing the number of inspectors, so we maybe seeing more inspections.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Really? I haven't seen any inspectors in quite a while. I guess I should start keeping my transfers before I get myself thrown in jail.

 

[nfitz]

Suddenly? Sorry, I've been on the 501 Queen streetcar, and I have seen inspectors checking for transfers or passes. Both recently and years ago. Looks more like they are increasing the number of inspectors, so we maybe seeing more inspections.

I use the 501 regularly, and I've never in my life seen inspectors. Now, I've met people who have known people who saw an inspector once. And there's been a flurry of tweets about it once every 18 months or so ... so it does happen. I've never heard of anyone being ticketed though ... I think it was just warnings for years.

But it's hardly been the norm, and driver's don't give you transfers unless you take one.

Really? I haven't seen any inspectors in quite a while. I guess I should start keeping my transfers before I get myself thrown in jail.

Sadly, jail isn't an option. If it was, the homeless would be flocking to the 501 when a cold night is coming. It's just a ticket.

But it will likely be a daily event from here on ... so yes; take those transfers.

 

[P23]

Because you piss off people, they phone the politicians, and you find yourself on the front of the Toronto Star.

It's plain common sense. We don't live in a police state after all!

Are you serious? You think people will phone their councillor because they got caught for what is essentially theft?... Police state??? What the hell are you talking about?

 

[nfitz]

Are you serious? You think people will phone their councillor because they got caught for what is essentially theft?...

If it's actually theft. No.

But if they had started on Monday fining people who had paid their fare, but not taken a transfer (like they've been doing for years), they would have had people phoning their councillor and the media for what is not theft.

Police state??? What the hell are you talking about?

Sudden and arbitrary enforcement of old and long-forgotten rules with little chance of conviction.

BTW, I was on 501 ALRV this morning, and I was quite impressed to hear an announcement about POP fares, and warning people. They seem to be communicating this well. I boarded at the back, so I couldn't see if the driver was pushing transfers on people.

 

[interchange42]

I was told sometime in the last year by a 501 driver that I had to take a transfer when dropping in a token. This isn't the first time ever they're telling people, but the organized way it's happening now via announcement is new of course.

42

 

[JasonParis]

I take the 501 at least three times a week and they always hand you a transfer if you pay at the gravity box. Whether they force you to take it I'm not sure.

 

[DSC]

I take the 501 at least three times a week and they always hand you a transfer if you pay at the gravity box. Whether they force you to take it I'm not sure.

Almost all TTC operators 'offer' transfers by sticking out their hand with one in it but I have never had one 'forced onto me' on the 501 - which I take fairly often and use cash or tokens.

 

[ehlow]

[video=youtube;TMM3n80hTQw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMM3n80hTQw[/video]

 

[the lemur]

Almost all TTC operators 'offer' transfers by sticking out their hand with one in it but I have never had one 'forced onto me' on the 501 - which I take fairly often and use cash or tokens.

I've encountered many operators who didn't offer transfers unless asked and others who seemed very reluctant to give them, for whatever reason.

I'm not convinced that you need to take a transfer simply as proof of payment. The transfer is for switching to a connecting route, so if you're not planning on doing that you don't need one. Also, you can't take one if you show a pass when boarding, because that is your proof of payment. And if you show a transfer as proof of payment from another vehicle when you board a second vehicle, the transfer is useless after that.

You could do numerous trips that involve transferring without the need to take or show a transfer (i.e., if the transfer takes place within a fare-paid area), so why would you take one in that case, even as proof of payment. That's why the subway map indicates the stations where a transfer is required to connecting surface routes.

 

[nfitz]

I take the 501 at least three times a week and they always hand you a transfer if you pay at the gravity box. Whether they force you to take it I'm not sure.

They've never forced ... they stick their hand out, and let people take them. Sometimes at the extremes of the line, when there's no realistic chance of transferring anywhere, they don't even offer, and look offended if you ask.

But that's changed. I've heard that some drivers today were actually talking to customers who weren't wanting to take a transfer.

This is why you can't go all Dirty Harry on the enforcement on day 1 (Monday the 18th). You have to build up to actually starting the fines.

 

[DSC]

I've encountered many operators who didn't offer transfers unless asked and others who seemed very reluctant to give them, for whatever reason.

I'm not convinced that you need to take a transfer simply as proof of payment. The transfer is for switching to a connecting route, so if you're not planning on doing that you don't need one. Also, you can't take one if you show a pass when boarding, because that is your proof of payment. And if you show a transfer as proof of payment from another vehicle when you board a second vehicle, the transfer is useless after that.

You could do numerous trips that involve transferring without the need to take or show a transfer (i.e., if the transfer takes place within a fare-paid area), so why would you take one in that case, even as proof of payment. That's why the subway map indicates the stations where a transfer is required to connecting surface routes.

I think you are confusing the current and future situations. In the current world, if one only allows access to a streetcar by passing the operator, and you pay by cash you clearly do NOT need a transfer if you are not going to transfer to another vehicle. (If the operator allowed you to board you must have a had a ticket or paid cash or come from a fare-paid area) We are talking about the situation where you will be allowed to access streetcars by any door and thus not pass an operator (the operators in new streetcars will not give transfers anyway). In these cases you DO need a transfer if you are transferring later on AND if a ticket inspector enters the streetcar and starts inspecting tickets. (In the new streetcars there will be machines on board to stamp tickets (which will act as proof of payment and cancel the ticket). This is why the new student/senior tickets are so large.

 

[the lemur]

I think you are confusing the current and future situations. In the current world, if one only allows access to a streetcar by passing the operator, and you pay by cash you clearly do NOT need a transfer if you are not going to transfer to another vehicle. (If the operator allowed you to board you must have a had a ticket or paid cash or come from a fare-paid area) We are talking about the situation where you will be allowed to access streetcars by any door and thus not pass an operator (the operators in new streetcars will not give transfers anyway). In these cases you DO need a transfer if you are transferring later on AND if a ticket inspector enters the streetcar and starts inspecting tickets. (In the new streetcars there will be machines on board to stamp tickets (which will act as proof of payment and cancel the ticket). This is why the new student/senior tickets are so large.

Okay, you're right, I am confusing them.

I think in the future situation there will only be passes, and tickets to be stamped or otherwise validated, all constituting proof of payment, and there will be no need to obtain anything specifically to facilitate transferring. Can't come soon enough.

 

[ksun]

Almost all TTC operators 'offer' transfers by sticking out their hand with one in it but I have never had one 'forced onto me' on the 501 - which I take fairly often and use cash or tokens.

yep, I had the same experience. The hold out but don't insist.

Question, not sure if it has been raised: why is the next rollout to be 511, instead of 501 for example, which obviously need more relief?

 

[DSC]

Question, not sure if it has been raised: why is the next rollout to be 511, instead of 501 for example, which obviously need more relief?

The rationale is that the 511 uses a small number of streetcars so the whole route can be converted early on. The TTC seem very averse to having old and new streetcars operating on the same route though obviously with only 1 or 2 streetcars ready for the 'launch' on Spadina on August 31 they seem to have overcome this. As noted on Steve Munro's blog, the real question is 'will cars released from Spadina, Bathurst etc. be used to increase service on routes like King and Queen?" These two are both very overcrowded.