Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[waterloowarrior]

Justin10000 got banned from SSP (temporarily) for personal attacks and a condescending attitude when defending Transit City Anyone who disagrees with Transit City is anti-transit, doesn't get it, has no idea, doesn't understand etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

I want to address this idea that we should build lines to capacity. That's a recipe for overcrowding. Requiring a line to be at capacity at its terminus is what leads to the conditions we have on Yonge right now. What a ridiculously high bar it is to require that any subway extension now see maximum ridership at its terminus. Why would we want the subway to be packed at STC when it still has dozens of stations till the core. Ditto for requiring max capacity at Agincourt for the Sheppard line.

 

[Dan416]

I want to address this idea that we should build lines to capacity. That's a recipe for overcrowding. Requiring a line to be at capacity at its terminus is what leads to the conditions we have on Yonge right now. What a ridiculously high bar it is to require that any subway extension now see maximum ridership at its terminus. Why would we want the subway to be packed at STC when it still has dozens of stations till the core. Ditto for requiring max capacity at Agincourt for the Sheppard line.

I think we should ignore the people who say Sheppard doesn't have enough demand for a subway. It's a ridiculous argument, especially in light of the Spadina extension, but even more so when you look at most cities with metro/subway systems and they aren't overcrowded and they're still models for transit. Why does every subway line have to be a picture of the Tokyo subway?

 

[Justin10000]

Perhaps Justin10000 is one of the 20 bitter people who live at Shaughnessy & Sheppard and didn't get their own personal subway station.

Neither do you. They want faster travel times.

The poor ridership on Sheppard shows your wrong. But keep on believing.

We can't afford Transit City...that's why the original $6B pricetag now covers only 2 of the 7 lines. It's a plan dependent on unlimited funding.

And we can afford subways. Amazing. Again keep on believing and dreaming. Let me guess, you complain about cost overruns. In your mind, subway construction will always be on budget? Come on.

Ridership will not increase along Sheppard with the LRT, except that driven by simple population growth in some places (and the population is actually falling in other places like Malvern). If the 190 continues to operate, the LRT won't even acquire the entire existing ridership base of the corridor. Buses will still need to run to Rouge Hill, and the 24A, 224, 167, and 169 will probably still need to run on Sheppard.

You can say the exact thing with a subway. You guys have turned this a mode debate. It has nothing to with what's good for Scarborough. It's now what's good to build a subway network, ridership be damnned. No wonder Toronto got nowhere in the past couple of decades. Keep on preaching for a subway no one really wants anymore.

 

[Justin10000]

Justin10000 got banned from SSP (temporarily) for personal attacks and a condescending attitude when defending Transit City Anyone who disagrees with Transit City is anti-transit, doesn't get it, has no idea, doesn't understand etc.

Ah yes, I remember that. Personal Attacks? Not likely. Me, and Mr. Toronto agree on many issue actually(better suburban bus service for example) But Mr. Brandon T.O. needed to be slagged for his insane ideas. Even more insane considering he does not live in Toronto.

Anyone who advocate cancelling a transit project is anti-transit. That's my view. Get it straight. It has nothing to do with subway vs. LRT. There are some part of Transit City that I have problems with(Jane LRT, for one), and I have serious issues with the Subway to Vaughn. But to cancel it? No way. Make best with waht you have. I already determined the members with common sense who understand money is limited, and we have to make do with what we have. Building one subway line to one area, and potentially denying the rest of the city with improved transit is just nuts.
It's good to see many people finally understand this. When unlimited funding materializes, then maybe we can look at building more subways. But for the time being, surface rail is the best answer.
But keep on complaining.

 

[Dan416]

Justin I realize you're new here, but I won't bother replying to your attacks because they're the most biased, misguided, wrong-headed, LRTista views I've ever heard. nfitz, EnviroTO, kettal, I take their concerns a little more seriously than yours. But calm down or you'll hurt their legitimate concerns far more than any Save Our Subways member ever will (before you get banned that is).

If you want to know where you lost me, it was when you wrote

The poor ridership on Sheppard shows your wrong

There's just so many things wrong with that sentence.

 

[doady]

Justin10000 said the Sheppard subway should not have been built. That makes him anti-transit. Anyone who says that any transit line should not have been built is anti-transit.

 

[Justin10000]

Justin I realize you're new here, but I won't bother replying to your attacks because they're the most biased, misguided, wrong-headed, LRTista views I've ever heard. nfitz, EnviroTO, kettal, I take their concerns a little more seriously than yours. But calm down or you'll hurt their legitimate concerns far more than any Save Our Subways member ever will (before you get banned that is).

If you want to know where you lost me, it was when you wrote

Please, enough with the personal attack accusation? I have not even singled one person out.

they're the most biased, misguided, wrong-headed, LRTista

You're allowed to criticize my views, yet you threaten me with a banning.
Is that what you call everyone who doesn't agree with you? An LRTista?

I replied to Ansem's post starting speed is not the only issue, that accessibilty plays a role also, and suddenly I am personally attacking you.
And I could care less if you do not reply to my post. Also please stop calling my posts attacks. I have not singled out one person. Yet, you, and Daody, and scarberiankhatru have singled me out for my views.

There's just so many things wrong with that sentence.

Oopps! Thanks for pointing that out. Oh wait, I guess that iis a personal attack from you. That's 2 from you now.

And yes, Doady, The Sheppard Subway should not have been built. If it was built as LRT originally, would you still be clamouring for a subway? Probably not.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

While I applaud you people having a debate, you people are taking this thing way too seriously and need to calm down. How about the two sides organize a public debate and you both argue your ideas infront of a group of people

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The poor ridership on Sheppard shows your wrong. But keep on believing.

I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but in the real world, ridership has gone way up along Sheppard since the subway opened and one reason is because the subway is considerably faster than the 85 used to be. Sorry for injecting fact into your anti-subway tirades.

And we can afford subways. Amazing. Again keep on believing and dreaming. Let me guess, you complain about cost overruns. In your mind, subway construction will always be on budget? Come on.

Yes, we can afford some subway projects. Like, duh. What we really can't afford is LRT lines to nowhere that don't run any faster than buses. We won't even be able to pay for all 7 Transit City lines at their current rate of bloat without additional funding windfalls. Keep the faith...you'll need it when the time comes to find a way to get lines like Jane built.

You can say the exact thing with a subway. You guys have turned this a mode debate. It has nothing to with what's good for Scarborough. It's now what's good to build a subway network, ridership be damnned. No wonder Toronto got nowhere in the past couple of decades. Keep on preaching for a subway no one really wants anymore.

Did a subway run over your puppy or something? You're the one obsessively defending Transit City, which is a series of LRT lines for the sake of bringing LRT lines to every ward and to fix socio-economic problems in priority neighbourhoods with endless billions of dollars of transit infrastructure. What's best for Sheppard is a subway extension coupled with improved bus service, and until the subway is extended (there's no rush), improved bus service can do everything LRT can...but for far less money.

 

[Brandon716]

Ah yes, I remember that. Personal Attacks? Not likely. Me, and Mr. Toronto agree on many issue actually(better suburban bus service for example) But Mr. Brandon T.O. needed to be slagged for his insane ideas. Even more insane considering he does not live in Toronto.

Anyone who advocate cancelling a transit project is anti-transit. That's my view. Get it straight. It has nothing to do with subway vs. LRT. There are some part of Transit City that I have problems with(Jane LRT, for one), and I have serious issues with the Subway to Vaughn. But to cancel it? No way. Make best with waht you have. I already determined the members with common sense who understand money is limited, and we have to make do with what we have. Building one subway line to one area, and potentially denying the rest of the city with improved transit is just nuts.
It's good to see many people finally understand this. When unlimited funding materializes, then maybe we can look at building more subways. But for the time being, surface rail is the best answer.
But keep on complaining.

Justin, I suspended your account because you were out of hand over at SSP. I've had PM's from people that agree with your viewpoint - that Transit City is the way to go - but disagree with your methods. Everything you post is based around the concept that critical thinking isn't accepted, and that your superior intelligence has all the answers. You were on the personal attack first, facts second.

Everyone here who knows me - and there are many - know that I've got a personal connection to Toronto and have visited there for years wanting to live there. If it were as easy as moving, I would have moved there 5 years ago.

As it stands, I'm as close as an American can get (moving to Buffalo this week).

But back on point, just because someone doesn't agree that Transit City is the best plan for transit ever doesn't mean they are anti-transit. I think most rational people would agree... But who said everyone was rational?

 

[Ansem]

Now you're talking about the bus? All right.
By your logic, the Sheppard Subway should not have been built, and I agree. Sheppard Subway = waste of money.

It’s waste for this line to remain incomplete. It should have been completed as plan.

Because it is a waste of resources to offer 2 different services on one corridor. If that was the case, you would think Sheppard's ridership would be higher. It's not.

Yonge Street?,,,Rings a bell?

If that was the case, you would think Sheppard's ridership would be higher. It's not.

Sheppard’s ridership matches and surpasses many subway lines around the world. No city expect the ridership of all their subway lines to be identical to its busiest line. By your logic the Montreal blue line in Montreal (north crosstown) should never have been build and Streetcars should have been there instead. In terms of practicality and the need to travel at high speed east-west north of the city the subway was still the best choice.

The blue line ridership was so low when it was completed in 1988 that they closed the line at 11pm. Now it closes as late as the others and the ridership as increased drastically… There isn’t a “downtown†north of Montreal and yet subway made the most sense. Go and tell them they are wrong and they should have built a streetcar on Jean-Talon instead… They don’t need stupid studies to know that even at 1/10 of the cost, it would not have been as efficient, attract the ridership the blue line have and it would not have been the best solution for citizens… There’s a huge difference between taking you 30 minutes to get to work by subway than an hour by streetcar.

No one is using the bus service to access the subway.

And you would no that how?

Who the hell wants to wait for a bus at the stations, only to have to walk again? It's stupid.

????
Are you calling al those people stupid???
So if we don’t do things your way, we’re all stupid?

The Sheppard Subway is not a feeder line, and never will be. Actually your scenario is pretty hypocritical. You moan about transfers, yet it's OK to take a bus to the subway. .

And someone who wants to get to STC from Downsview would transfer even more.
You should really travel more. There is nothing unusual in having a surface bus route and having subway under the street.
When the subway stations are far from each other, it’s a good idea to have a bus service that will take you from between stops to the nearest station…like on Yonge Street and Sheppard Ave East.

The ridiculous traffic on Sheppard, and the low subway ridership tells me you made a fool's bet. .

You haven’t been on Sheppard lately…It really shows…

Your scenario is a failure. I'm willing to bet if surface rail was built on Sheppard instead of the subway, there would a line from Downsview to Meadowvale by now, and the ridership would put the current ridership to shame. .

Wishful thinking…Even the city studies already demonstrates that LRT will never draw more ridership than a subway…NEVER. It’s a fact.
Go back and read the studies again.

All the Sheppard subway did was transfer former bus ridership. Sure there are more riders, but the subway is not even close to capacity. .

Because it’s incomplete. It was never meant to be 5 station short. Ridership is much higher than the 85 bus without the subway by the way. You need to provide some facts before saying anything…

Your scenario is not accessible. It's a waster of resources, and attracts the minimal amount of riders. .

Based on what study? They already say subway would attract more but they only studied the Sheppard avenue area and did not look beyond. They are underestimating the ridership a complete subway would bring because they underestimate how far people will go out of their way to take a subway…they wont for a streetcar.

Yes, and that is why the Sheppard Subway is called Lastman's Folly. 1 Billion dollars wasted on what is essentially a under-capacity express subway. .

It’s incomplete. A billion for a streetcar to the zoo and Morningside…is that supposed to be smarter spending?

Focusing on speed is a waste of money, since the line becomes less accessible. Don't you get it from the articles, and comments at the open houses? People want ACCESSIBILITY. Speed is a factor too, but you need to find a good balance between the 2. If someone cannot walk, or at leas bike to a station, chances are they will not bother. .

BRT east of Agincourt can do the same in terms of accessibility and keeping the 85 bus as well.
Someone who can’t walk have special services offered by the TTC
Most buses have bike racks…

Who cares? God. You just don't get it. What is the point of "Rapid Transit", if you cannot capture the most riders? .

Rapid transit is suppose to be rapid…which is not the case.

A subway with 1km station spacing does not work in Toronto! The TTC, and city finally learned their lesson and are actually bringing high capaciy transit TO THE RIDERS. .

The Yonge line and spadina line are failures?

LRT is the best mode for that. It's you,and the rest of the subway advocates who ignore the demands of citizens that wanted the stations put in. Hell, people are complaining that the station spacing on Eglinton is too wide!
It's clear you, and others do not know what people want, but still make asinine assumptions.
Seriously stop speaking for citizens. You clearly have no idea what they want. .

And you’re suppose to be psychic?

I love anti-transit assumptions. You think there is an unlimited amount of money floating around. You blame Miller for creating a plan at a time, that the city could afford at the time.

Expenses have increased on Miller’s watches and besides we know there isn’t a lot of money around…It how the current funds are being used that we’re questioning

What else am I missing? Oh right. There is a huge conspiracy against subways in Toronto. The mayor who finally came up with a plan that got funded, and is pushing for the DRL canceled the Sheppard subway. How can I forget? Since it's a "glorified streetcar", no one will ride it.
Please. Stop focusing on speed, and thinking only subways can deliver. This sort of thinking is exactly why Toronto transit development pretty much stalled over the last few decades. Well, that and ICTS.

Uninformed. Contradictions, and a Subway phobia and speed phobia that I don’t get…
I’m starting to consider not wasting my time at refuting your arguments. The others supporting your point of view are way more clever in their answers…
Anyways… It’s the last time I’ll bother answering you.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Ok, I'd just like to put in my two cents about this whole Subway vs. LRT argument.

If you look at the density and employment patters on Sheppard, as well as the current ridership patterns, you can see why there's really no sound reason for a LRT to Morningside or the zoo. Sheppard has four big areas along it's route; North York Centre, Consumer's business centre/medium density office park/whatever, Agincourt, and Scarborough Town Centre. Between these nodes, there is a lot of density in the form of high rise apartment blocks.
Once you hit Midland, all that density turns into pretty light industry, and not even the kind that could be ugly but still employs a lot of people. No, it's mostly warehouses and other small industries. There's a couple apartment buildings around McCowan, I think, but they're just a 6 minute bus away from STC, which could easily be down to 4 minutes if they put in some form of BRT on McCowan. Then past Markham Road, you're in deep suburbia. No way people are putting pretty mixed use mid rises in this section. Not in the next 20 years, and probably not even in a century.

And I'd still like to point out that even up to Markham, people would be seeing better results with a subway + bus than with a LRT in terms of speed, even without BRT lanes that could easily be painted on the road in all of 3 days. Past Agincourt, nowhere near LRT capacity is needed. Once you get past Agincourt, however, density explodes and ridership does as well. A LRT on Sheppard east of Markham is massive overkill, and pretty big overkill past Brimley.

And if you think that a lot of people'll decide to take the LRT to the zoo, well I don't even know where to start with you! LRT from Don Mills would be an agonizing 45 minutes, not including the time you've already travelled to get to Don Mills. If they extend the SRT and it gets a stop at Sheppard and Markham, they'd still be looking at 30 minutes from STC to the Zoo, again, not taking into account travel times to STC.

In terms of people from Malvern, it'd be much better for them to use STC as a node to access either Sheppard or the B-D. They'll either get that with the extended RT (got help us if that happens,) or if the councillors get their heads out of the sand, a progress LRT to Malvern or even an express bus. This is one of my beefs with the Kingston Road/Morningside LRT; it boasts the need for LRT, but fails to make any connection with STC, the major node in Scarborough. It should be BRT all along Kingston Road all the way to Main St. or Victoria Park (terminating at UTSC,) which would be more acceptable because it shows that it's simply a better bus service instead of what LRT's being made out to be (an alternate to RT subways,) and doesn't encourage Kennedy as a huge transportation hub instead of STC.

But the biggest thing about the SELRT is that it in no way regards the individual densities of ridership, employment and population along Sheppard. One can see that there's two major employment centres along the Sheppard East corridor, two large residential centres, and a slew of high density that's even now shown to be quite savvy where transit's concerned. I'm sure the entire corridor would be quick to pick up the subway if it actually came their way, which (believe it or not!) is not the case in all corridors. Once you get past Agincourt (where the Sheppard subway would divert off Sheppard,) everything crumbles to bits; the apartment blocks disappear, there's no more employment centres along it's 10 or so kilometer route, and the population is much more likely to drive. These are the people that probably would still drive if they got a subway at their doorstep, and trust me, they won't be too happy about a >30 minute LRT ride just to transfer onto the subway and then possibly another one.

But then again, that's just my two cents. I can't speak for all the people along Sheppard, but I'm pretty sure that makes more sense than the LRT argument.

 

[nfitz]

We can't afford Transit City...that's why the original $6B pricetag now covers only 2 of the 7 lines. It's a plan dependent on unlimited funding.

That seems a bit disingenuous; the prices have certainly inflated some since the original estimates. If you look at the April 1st funding announcment Finch and Eglinton will indeed cost $5.8-billion. But that's $1.2-billion for the 24-km LRT on Finch from Humber College to Don Mills; and $4.6-billion for the 30-km LRT on Eglinton from Pearson to Kennedy. So LRT is coming in at $50-million per kilometre. Assuming the 20-km of surface LRT on Eglinton is coming in at the same cost, then the surface portion would cost $1.0 billion compared to $3.6-billion for the 10-km subway section ... at $360-million per kilometre.

I think they might have underestimated the cost of the surface LRT a bit, but still $2.2-billion for 44-km of surface LRT versus $3.6-billion for 10-km of subway? And yet you use this as a case for more subway?

 

[Fresh Start]

Wow Ansem, I really admire your dedication to promoting real rapid transit solutions (not band-aid temporary fixes!) to spend so much time arguing point by point, fallacy by fallacy with a vacuum. I know his opinion cannot be swayed but I may as well try for myself.

Because it is a waste of resources to offer 2 different services on one corridor. If that was the case, you would think Sheppard's ridership would be higher. It's not. No one is using the bus service to access the subway. Who the hell wants to wait for a bus at the stations, only to have to walk again?

Only 15% of subway users city-wide are walk-ins, if even. Virtually everyone else commutes in via public transit. Which is both practical and logical if one's bus fare can also cover one's subway train ride. What's a waste of resources is to further divide up the 85 bus corridor now into three different segments such that it is no longer possible to obtain a one seat ride directly from Sheppard/Kingston to Sheppard/Yonge. Customers would have to now transfer twice; which if transferring onto a faster, more reliable service would be reasonable. However SELRT will only be marginally faster than the 85 bus (perhaps not at all, since at least the bus can clear changing traffic signals with relative ease meanwhile trams outside of exclusive ROW are at the mercy of incumbent traffic conditions). And although the average speed for buses is 17kph, Sheppard East already has a sparser population accounting for fewer and less congregated bus stops than say we'd witness along Eglinton or through the downtown. This raises the mileage the 85 bus can achieve east of Markham Road, an area where the sight of half-empty bus trips is commonplace and unlikely to change any time soon.

These factors do not lend to the case for upgrading the mode to light-rail status, especially if said line will not be in a private ROW and requires another transfer for customers to access major destinations closeby such as Malvern Town Centre, Centennial College and SCC. At most, experimental BRT should be tested along the 85 corridor first to determine whether it can even sustain high enough a ridership for deidcated ROW. These are the twenty some-odd steps Miller, Giambrone and Co. should have explored before declaring the EA process mysteriously completed at worp speed.

It's stupid. The Sheppard Subway is not a feeder line, and never will be.

You're right, if we follow the general concensus of public apathy and do nothing, not so much as raise a single voice of dissent; then yes Miller will have pigeonholed all the untapped potential Sheppard could have had to ever link two major downtown cores together. But apart from being a feeder line; the major infill growth potential in Wishing Well, Bay Mills and Agincourt would also be lost as Avenueization works best where development occurs organically, not as part of abrupt city planning. St Clair, Eglinton, Queen, Lakshore, etc. all had organic growth. It'll take more than a few misguided streetcar lines in subrubia to duplicate a process that took over a century to manifest and sustain itself elsewhere.

Your scenario is a failure. I'm willing to bet if surface rail was built on Sheppard instead of the subway, there would a line from Downsview to Meadowvale by now, and the ridership would put the current ridership to shame. All the Sheppard subway did was transfer former bus ridership. Sure there are more riders, but the subway is not even close to capacity.

Your scenario is not accessible. It's a waster of resources, and attracts the minimal amount of riders.

Your scenario is the epitome of failure. Downsview to Yonge doesn't have the density to support anything more than an express bus service, which it already has. Ditto Markham to Morningside. It takes a lot less money (as low as $6 million per kilometre) to build a continuous network of BRT ROW right across the city landscape. BRT in private ROW operating on biodiesels and bi-artics would have the same environmental and reduced labour avantages as the LRT. Literally for less than the cost of one single Transit City Line, the whole city, every ward, could be recieving mass transit.

Begs the question, why bother wih LRTs if they cost more, aren't in private ROW and will make commutes longer than via the bus? Or better yet, why place them in corridors where there's already a half-finished subway line just miles away from several major trip-generators? It's farcical that you complain about undercapacity on a subway line that ends arbitrarily yet figure that a cross-city LRT line missing several nodes and itself terminating at non-destinations will garner oh so much higher volumes of ridership.

Don't you get it from the articles, and comments at the open houses? People want ACCESSIBILITY. Speed is a factor too, but you need to find a good balance between the 2. If someone cannot walk, or at leas bike to a station, chances are they will not bother.

How many people outside of the YUS loop downtown actually walk it to their local subway station? Even when I used to live 4 blocks away from the Bloor-Danforth I'd await the bus. Seriously this is an absurd justification of LRT. As if to say buses aren't accessible and because they can radiate themselves onto minor residential streets will not prove to be even closer to where people actually live than SELRT will be, affixed to only the one corridor.

Who cares? God. You just don't get it. What is the point of "Rapid Transit", if you cannot capture the most riders? A subway with 1km station spacing does not work in Toronto! The TTC, and city finally learned their lesson and are actually bringing high capaciy transit TO THE RIDERS.

I got to hand it to you man, you've now surpassed Second In Pie for the most illogical statements contained within a single post. First of all, SELRT's spacing will be very far apart almost comparable to some subway gaps through the downtown (almost 500m apart average). Yeah really accessible. Also to be accessible, as a side-note, it'd lend that the ROW shouldn't be within the middle of a busy throughfare where a reckless driver could accidently mow down pedestrians. Again fail! Lastly, it matters not how far apart subway stops are when a relief bus service overhead can easily cater to residents living far in-between. Routes 85A, 109, 97, 66, 20 all parallel where the subway gaps start to widen out. And while these routes are popular, the majority obviously prefers the fast convenience of travelling over a kilometre in under two minutes instead of around 10 minutes to attempt the same along the surface. Otherwise the subway wouldn't be so highly used.

Seriously stop speaking for citizens. You clearly have no idea what they want.

Add up the sum of all the downtown streetcar lines' passenger volumes and it sill won't surpass the 484 million riders per day whom prefer the Bloor-Danforth. Many of these folk live south of the line and are destined for points also located south the line. This should all infer that there's an innate preferrence for one mode above all others. And that is how we know, or can at least assert to know what the people want, because we are basing our ideology on the facts, not non-sequitors.