Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[nfitz]

Are you calling al those people stupid???

You can call me Al! Get these mutts away from me, you know I don't find this stuff amusing anymore!

So if we don’t do things your way, we’re all stupid?

If you'll be my bodyguard, I can be your long lost pal.

You should really travel more.

A man walks down the street, he says why am I short of attention.

You haven’t been on Sheppard lately…It really shows…

A man walks down the street, it's a street in a strange world. Maybe it's the Third World. Maybe it's his first time around.

And you’re suppose to be psychic?

There were incidents and accidents, there were hints and allegations.

Uninformed. Contradictions, and a Subway phobia and speed phobia that I don’t get…

He looks around, around; he sees angels in the architecture, spinning in infinity. He says Amen! and Hallelujah!

It’s the last time I’ll bother answering you.

I can call you Betty, and Betty when you call me; you can call me Al.

 

[Fresh Start]

$3.6-billion for the 10-km subway section ... at $360-million per kilometre.

I think they might have underestimated the cost of the surface LRT a bit, but still $2.2-billion for 50-km of surface LRT versus $3.6-billion for 10-km of subway? And yet you use this as a case for more subway?

Since when has the cost to build ballooned from $250 million per kilometre to $300 million/km to now over $360 million per kilometre? I think that you are taking your analysis of the rates of inflation way too seriously. It is still possible for developed nations to build subways today for as low as $134 million per kilometre (e.g. Madrid). The method of evaluation you are using needs to be reassessed, as its only worth is in spreading falsities and scaremongering a misinformed and gullible public into thinking LRT's the only affordable solution out there.

 

[Dan416]

Okay if we're done ignoring the troll already, let's get back down to busines. I was talking to my friend from Scarborough today and he suggested that a transfer between the Sheppard line and the Danforth line was stupid. And I realized he was kinda right. Once they both meet Scarborough Centre, they should become one line. Yes, it'd be a long line (from Downsview to Kipling via Scarborough Centre), but YUS will reach from Vaughan Centre to Richmond Hill Centre via Union, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Granted, we'd lose the purple Sheppard colour with it becoming part of a Bloor-Danforth-Sheppard line (BDS sound good actually), but it'd provide a superior service with less transfers for more people.

It's not necessary, but I'm just throwing the idea out there to see how many people support it. It's been brought up before, but I think it's an interesting idea.

 

[nfitz]

Since when has the cost to build ballooned from $250 million per kilometre to $300 million/km to now over $360 million per kilometre? I think that you are taking your analysis of the rates of inflation way too seriously.

My analysis? I haven't inflated anything; these are the numbers right out of the Province of Ontario funding announcement; the only calculation I did was to take the $/km for LRT they had on Finch, and used it on Eglinton, to back out the $/km for subway.

But let's assume that it is $250 per kilometre (which I think is low) ... so the 10-km of subway on Eglinton would still cost $2.5-billion, compared to the $2.3-billion being spend on 44-km of LRT.

 

[nfitz]

Okay if we're done ignoring the troll already, let's get back down to busines. I was talking to my friend from Scarborough today and he suggested that a transfer between the Sheppard line and the Danforth line was stupid. And I realized he was kinda right. Once they both meet Scarborough Centre, they should become one line.

It is, and perhaps there is some merit to it ... heck, it would be faster for me to take it to Don Mills Station (I'm near Woodbine) that the 3-subways ... (though the Pape bus is often faster).

We did discuss this before, and I think my suggestion was if they do that, then they should extend it to Downsview at the other end, to create the:
Yonge-University-Spadina-Sheppard-Danforth-Bloor line ... think of the amount of money you'd save on paint!

Though that was before the Spadina extension got a go-ahead.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Okay if we're done ignoring the troll already, let's get back down to busines. I was talking to my friend from Scarborough today and he suggested that a transfer between the Sheppard line and the Danforth line was stupid. And I realized he was kinda right. Once they both meet Scarborough Centre, they should become one line. Yes, it'd be a long line (from Downsview to Kipling via Scarborough Centre), but YUS will reach from Vaughan Centre to Richmond Hill Centre via Union, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Granted, we'd lose the purple Sheppard colour with it becoming part of a Bloor-Danforth-Sheppard line (BDS sound good actually), but it'd provide a superior service with less transfers for more people.

It's not necessary, but I'm just throwing the idea out there to see how many people support it. It's been brought up before, but I think it's an interesting idea.

Ehh, I really don't support this. Scarborough Town Centre is really a node, and I think most trips will either be terminating there or going there from busses, and then taking the B-D or Sheppard. I think it'll be a very rare case that someone'll loop around, and if they do, it'd be much better for them to simply wait than put both lines into jeopardy by making them unmanageably long (for such little benefit.)

And Fresh Start, I take offense to your comment about the nonsense that goes on in my posts!

 

[Dan416]

Ehh, I really don't support this. Scarborough Town Centre is really a node, and I think most trips will either be terminating there or going there from busses, and then taking the B-D or Sheppard. I think it'll be a very rare case that someone'll loop around, and if they do, it'd be much better for them to simply wait than put both lines into jeopardy by making them unmanageably long (for such little benefit.)

And Fresh Start, I take offense to your comment about the nonsense that goes on in my posts!

But think about it. You have a subway train approaching Scarborough Centre from Kenedy. But you'll also have a subway train leaving Scarborough headed for Donwsview. Why not simplify things and make that train the same train? It won't affect a lot of people, so it's not a NEEDED thing, but why not keep things simple?

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Because a slowdown on the B-D means a huge delay at Don Mills?

We want to make our lines as reliable as possible, and they become exponentially harder to control the longer they get. If not a lot of people will actually be making much use out of the linking of the two subways, why risk that huge inefficiency?

On the YUS, it makes sense, as there'll be people at King who want to get to Osgoode quickly, so they just loop around, no biggie. However, I think a lot of people can agree that demand won't be present around STC.

 

[Ansem]

Kennedy Station should be rebuilt from scratch

 

[Fresh Start]

Ehh, I really don't support this. Scarborough Town Centre is really a node, and I think most trips will either be terminating there or going there from busses, and then taking the B-D or Sheppard. I think it'll be a very rare case that someone'll loop around, and if they do, it'd be much better for them to simply wait than put both lines into jeopardy by making them unmanageably long (for such little benefit.)

And Fresh Start, I take offense to your comment about the nonsense that goes on in my posts!

I apologize. Most of the time what you contribute to the discussion is on point and valid (far moreso than I feel regarding Justin's opinions). I was just making referrence to the few occasions when you tended to ramble on about something that wasn't relevant. Didn't mean to single you out man, I was just venting my frustrations in trying to articulate a response to that post. Namaste!

I happen to agree with you that it is better to have the rapid transit lines of Scarborough converge upon its cheif hub, rather than route them into isolated corners of the borough. I mean what good is boarding the SELRT from Don Mills when one's bound for SCC? The 190 in that case has more practical use. It'd be nice if two BRT lines radiating out of the subway stop @Scarborough Centre could do the task of several planned light-rail projects. Hypothetically a NORTHEAST BRT could cover Centennial> Markham/Sheppard> Malvern> Morningside Hts> Zoo while a SOUTHEAST BRT via Ellesmere, Military and Kingston Rd could handle Centenary Hosp> UTSC> West Hill> Guildwood> Cliffside> Victoria Park Stn. This in my opinion would best cater to Scarborough's needs, as it'd result in less transferring and interruption of direct rapid transit service right across the borough.

 

[Fresh Start]

But think about it. You have a subway train approaching Scarborough Centre from Kenedy. But you'll also have a subway train leaving Scarborough headed for Donwsview. Why not simplify things and make that train the same train? It won't affect a lot of people, so it's not a NEEDED thing, but why not keep things simple?

Having the Sheppard-Bloor-Danforth Line be continuous from Sheppard-Yonge to Kipling would really simplify travel. The existing Sheppard Stations already have knock-out panels to expand the platforms to handle 6-car trainsets, so why not. I'd rather push for that than SRT expansion or the Scarborough-Malvern Line.

 

[Fred.S]

We want to make our lines as reliable as possible, and they become exponentially harder to control the longer they get. If not a lot of people will actually be making much use out of the linking of the two subways, why risk that huge inefficiency?

Also, Sheppard is using 4-car trains, so it wouldn't be practical to use BD's longer trains. I don't think Sheppard would need longer trains at first, even if expanded from Downsview to STC (as long as all the stations are expandable).

 

[Second_in_pie]

I apologize. Most of the time what you contribute to the discussion is on point and valid (far moreso than I feel regarding Justin's opinions). I was just making referrence to the few occasions when you tended to ramble on about something that wasn't relevant. Didn't mean to single you out man, I was just venting my frustrations in trying to articulate a response to that post. Namaste!

Haha, no worries! I do realize I tend to ramble on a lot, and my posts end up being pretty messy and pretty much a great big wall of text.

I happen to agree with you that it is better to have the rapid transit lines of Scarborough converge upon its cheif hub, rather than route them into isolated corners of the borough. I mean what good is boarding the SELRT from Don Mills when one's bound for SCC? The 190 in that case has more practical use. It'd be nice if two BRT lines radiating out of the subway stop @Scarborough Centre could do the task of several planned light-rail projects. Hypothetically a NORTHEAST BRT could cover Centennial> Markham/Sheppard> Malvern> Morningside Hts> Zoo while a SOUTHEAST BRT via Ellesmere, Military and Kingston Rd could handle Centenary Hosp> UTSC> West Hill> Guildwood> Cliffside> Victoria Park Stn. This in my opinion would best cater to Scarborough's needs, as it'd result in less transferring and interruption of direct rapid transit service right across the borough.

Yep, essentially what I'd imagine.

A northeast BRT/LRT going along Progress and then along something like McLevin to Malvern Town Centre would be very well used and connects a number of important points. It also has the added benefit of providing a local service to STC, which will become more and more useful as the area grows (more need, more traffic.)

I'd also add on a McCowan BRT to get more northern Scarborough residents. It could easily go all the way to Markville Mall, which link up with Viva and helps transit in York as well.

As for Ellesmere-UTSC, I'm really not sure about that. I don't think that Ellesmere requires any BRT at all, especially not between McCowan and Morningside. I think it'd be a much better use of capital as well as service to create an easy route from STC to UTSC for Go to use. I realize that Go bus on a highway vs. a ROW that's right there, the BRT in a ROW wins through psychology; you know where the ROW goes, so it's a more direct route, ROW means they're paying attention to your needs as a passenger, etc. But I think that if you make a special Transit-only entrance onto the 401 from STC, it'd provide an easier and faster trip to UTSC.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That seems a bit disingenuous; the prices have certainly inflated some since the original estimates. If you look at the April 1st funding announcment Finch and Eglinton will indeed cost $5.8-billion. But that's $1.2-billion for the 24-km LRT on Finch from Humber College to Don Mills; and $4.6-billion for the 30-km LRT on Eglinton from Pearson to Kennedy. So LRT is coming in at $50-million per kilometre. Assuming the 20-km of surface LRT on Eglinton is coming in at the same cost, then the surface portion would cost $1.0 billion compared to $3.6-billion for the 10-km subway section ... at $360-million per kilometre.

I think they might have underestimated the cost of the surface LRT a bit, but still $2.2-billion for 44-km of surface LRT versus $3.6-billion for 10-km of subway? And yet you use this as a case for more subway?

Inflated some? The original pricetag now only covers 2 of the 7 lines, and god knows what the final actual costs will be. There's absolutely nothing affordable about the plan, particularly when you start adding up all the bus routes that will need to be retained. Much of the corridors covered by Transfer City could be very well served by improved buses...significant stretches of Transfer City - including some places where the LRT is projected to run slower than current buses - will never utilize more than 10% or so of LRT's capacity. It's a horrible plan that squanders billions of dollars.

I wasn't talking about subways, which you'd know if you'd bothered to read the post instead of pressing "quote" as soon as you saw that little yellow hexagon.

 

[nfitz]

I wasn't talking about subways, which you'd know if you'd bothered to read the post instead of pressing "quote" as soon as you saw that little yellow hexagon.

Why do you have to be so rude?

You first said "We can't afford Transit City...that's why the original $6B pricetag now covers only 2 of the 7 lines. It's a plan dependent on unlimited funding." you then said "Yes, we can afford some subway projects. Like, duh. What we really can't afford is LRT lines to nowhere that don't run any faster than buses. "

How is that not talking about subways?

And why do you need to use such rude phrases as "if you'd bothered to read the post" and "Like, duh" Such extreme rudeness does not advance the discussion.