Ansem
Banned
that money should have gone to Sheppard West extension from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview...
That corridor is a disaster at peak times
That corridor is a disaster at peak times
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
30 minutes bus service would not be enough. It would have to be somewhere around 10 mins or less....as in to get you from your bus stop to the LRT stop. Otherwise, at least half the people will just take the bus. That's why 800m stop spacing would not work (though it would be quiet fast).
LRT should have been reserved for congested corridors or high demand corridors where demand was too little for a subway. Sheppard East is neither. And that's why LRT is not the optimal solution here. Moreover, considering Sheppard East as one entity from end to end is also a bad decision. Vic Park is significantly different from Morningside. Any serious analysis would have taken these differences and resultant differences in demand into account.
Fresh Start
Banned
I think I'd like SE LRT more if it went directly into Malvern Town Centre and terminated there where it could at least potentially interline with the Scarborough (L)RT. There is next to zero ridership on the 85 bus east of Morningside that justifies that portion of the line. Implementing a new 85 bus with a permanent all-day loop into the Zoo entrance (seasonal) east of Neilson would be fine.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I totally agree. LRT should be for high ridership routes that experience a lot of normal road congestion. It should basically act as a regular bus route, but just with improved service.
There's a lot of idle demand on Sheppard. There's a huge demand for the city centres that would be at either end of the Sheppard subway corridor, and the line would easily suck up a bunch of other bus routes to disperse people to these city centres (and their respective connecting Subway lines.) If it was built as originally planned, there'd be a lot of travel across all parts of the subway. People will be going from North York to STC, maybe from Scarborough to Consumers, between NYCC and STC, possibly a fair number of riders to Fairview Mall, from Scarborough to STC, Scarborough to NYCC... you get the picture. These are all trips that there's really a lot of demand for, but isn't getting fleshed out. There's only half a subway right now, and that cuts the number of possible quick trips more than in half.
And between Yonge and Downsview, heck is there a lot of demand. Especially once the Spadina line gets extended, every student who has access to the Yonge line is going to want a Yonge-Downsview connection to get to York University, very much so if (when) the Yonge line gets extended. The ridership may not be there now in the busses or the people living between Yonge and Downsview, but it's there as potential. Once you build a subway, they'll start flocking in. Geez, it seems the TTC was actually able to engineer a way for the subway to fail. I'll definitely give them props for that, if it's not to beat in their skulls when they turn around.
I definitely agree. It looks like Miller and Co. (other than going "let's kill a subway line,") took a look at the Sheppard ridership and assumed that people were evenly getting on and off at an even pace. Not even close. I'd hazard to guess that 75% of the line's ridership is west of Agincourt, and that the unrealized ridership in the corridor is at least that same figure.
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Voltz
Senior Member
^
Don't you mean west of Agincourt, not east?
Don't you mean west of Agincourt, not east?
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Oh, yeah d:
GTS
Active Member
Ansem, I agree the Sheppard west is pretty much crush loaded at peak times and Sheppard itself is packed with traffic. The westward extension to Downsview is needed badly. Even more so when the extension to York University from Downsview is completed.
Sheppard Subway needs more funding in both directions. I am glad for the Sheppard LRT but I think a subway extension to the Agincourt GO station and then down to STC would have been money better spent then the LRT.
Sheppard Subway needs more funding in both directions. I am glad for the Sheppard LRT but I think a subway extension to the Agincourt GO station and then down to STC would have been money better spent then the LRT.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yep...sorry west of Agincourt....
Justin10000
Banned
Wait, wait, We cannot afford to spend 1.2 Billion to improve service, increase capacity, and give people an overall better ride, but it's OK to spend possibly double more for a subway to "complete" the network?
You know what's a fantasy? Still believing in a subway to STC, and somehow believing it will solve everything. That is the fantasy here. There is potential for corridor development with this line, and a more options for travellers. To bad, you people are too blind to see anything beyond speed.
As a citizen, we cannot afford subways that will be underused.
It's at 8,000. No where enough to even justify a subway.
Yet you want to build a subway with 1km+ station spacing, which will most likely require a parallel bus service. Your comment justifies why an LRT is needed with 400m stop spacing. It's about improving local service, and speed.
Do you honestly think people are going to want to take a subway just because it might be faster, only to have to wait for a infrequent parallel bus service? Didn't work on Yonge, or Sheppard. Why would it work on Sheppard.
SELRT is the right choice, and you know it.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The fantasy is that service will improve. You're entitled to a fantasy, though. $1.2B will be spent, and for what? To shave a few minutes off a half hour trip from Morningside that hardly anybody even makes? As a citizen, you cannot afford that. Also, the only thing real people care about is travel times. The LRT will do absolutely nothing to address travel times...and the eastern half of it will be extremely "underused." "More options for travellers"? WTF does that even mean? Newsflash: replacing buses with LRT removes travel options.
Did I say the 190 justified a subway extension? No, I didn't. Please, learn to read. The 190 overlaps with the 85, by the way. The 190's ridership and service levels have increased every year, and not just at the expense of the 85.
Again, learn to read before responding and stop putting words in my mouth. Your argument is incredibly lame. I didn't even use the word subway in that post. I'm saying we should improve the bus service instead of wasting $1.2B on a streetcar ROW that will simply not provide better service than what already existing buses can do. The subway should be extended at some point but it's not a priority. I've never said it was. Until it is extended, whether that be in 5 years or 50 years, the buses can handle service on Sheppard...service has improved since the 190 was introduced and existing buses can still be improved further, saving a billion dollars.
What "didn't work" on Yonge? The 97 exists to serve a few 2km gaps. If you think that means Yonge "doesn't work" in any way, well, that's just stupid. Sheppard also has a 2km gap, but Willowdale station should have been built and should be added. If Sheppard is extended, whatever gaps exist would barely be longer than 1km and some of them could have bus service filling part of that gap - like if the Birchmount bus ran to Sheppard & Warden. Other gaps of roughly 1.2km would exist, but do you really think stations should be added on top of the 404 or on top of the 401 or next to the recycling plant along Progress, right beside the proposed Midland station which is next to a second recycling plant on Progress? Clearly, you haven't thought this (or much else) through.
There will be parallel bus service after the LRT...the 24A, the 224, the 167, the 169, and the 190 will all continue to run in mixed traffic alongside the ROW. But maybe they'll just trash these routes or stop running them to the subway! That'd be so great for riders!
Why are people so obsessed with stop spacing mantras?
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
This whole stop spacing thing just means we get a line like this (red circles are stops). Two stops to serve Home Depot, and water towers, drivethroughs and gas stations get the best service of all.
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scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
By 2020 that area will be twice as nice as the Champs-Elysees...how dare you question the stop spacing vision!
Denying that water tower access to good transit would be very cruel.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
I can't help but feel a sort of de ja vu.
I'm pretty sure spending hundreds of millions of dollars for marginal, if even existent, gains in travel time will be just as stupid no matter how many times it is explained.
I'm pretty sure spending hundreds of millions of dollars for marginal, if even existent, gains in travel time will be just as stupid no matter how many times it is explained.
UD2
Active Member
To whom it may concern:
The Sheppard East LRT have been planned, studied, and funded for and its first phase of construction preparations has already begun. The fact that there are a number of people on this forum who feel the zeal to progressively dismiss the merits of this project and target anyone who feels otherwise does not overcome the reality that the project will indeed go on and our infrastructure will be built.
Therefore to debate against those who will never cease to assert their discretional claims, and the same whom who are under the impression that tireless promulgation of tired opinions in pointless discussions will actually contribute to the betterment of society, is a pointless waste of everybody's time and the world's resources.
I support the Sheppard LRT and lucky for me all three levels of government support it too.
I'm happy that it is being built and I think it'll do great for Toronto.
I invite those who agree with me to exit this meaningless debate and let the other side flourish in their own opinions without costing us our most precious resource, time.
Regards,
The Sheppard East LRT have been planned, studied, and funded for and its first phase of construction preparations has already begun. The fact that there are a number of people on this forum who feel the zeal to progressively dismiss the merits of this project and target anyone who feels otherwise does not overcome the reality that the project will indeed go on and our infrastructure will be built.
Therefore to debate against those who will never cease to assert their discretional claims, and the same whom who are under the impression that tireless promulgation of tired opinions in pointless discussions will actually contribute to the betterment of society, is a pointless waste of everybody's time and the world's resources.
I support the Sheppard LRT and lucky for me all three levels of government support it too.
I'm happy that it is being built and I think it'll do great for Toronto.
I invite those who agree with me to exit this meaningless debate and let the other side flourish in their own opinions without costing us our most precious resource, time.
Regards,
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Ha, you think you're trying to take the high road but you're really just trying to get the last smug word in with what is really yet another utterly pointless post. Nice try.
This project stinks and everyone knows it, but hopefully the bad taste it will leave in our mouths will prevent worse projects down the road. That's a goal here with much of this debate...the world doesn't begin and end with Sheppard. This is not the first time an unequivocally awful project has been rammed down this city's throat, and it won't be the last unless we do things like question them. No, this thread is not the only place that process is occurring.
edit - well, it won't be a total loss...at least the rebuilt Stouffville crossing will be good for cars, trucks, and drivers.
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