Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Ansem]

In order for the LRT to be extended eastwards from Don Mills to Sheppard and Yonge in substitution for the existing subway, certain very expansive modifications will need to be made.

1. Tunnels must be modified to incorporate overhead wires to power the LRT vehicles.

2. The third rail that currently power the subway should need to be removed, especially in station as there are currently mounted on the platform side.

3. All platforms will need to be lowered to the floor level in order to accomadate the low floor LRTs. This will be very expansive as the platforms were not originally designed and built to be eaily taken apart. Add the fact that the station roof will need to be cut open for any type of heavy equipment, this will potentially be very expansive.

4. Either elevators will need to be modified to descend deeper or ramps will need to be built on the lowered platform to the elevator at current level for wheelchair access.

5. Stair will need to be extended.

6. Current tiles on the walls will need to be lowered. More difficult than it sounds as the tiles are mostly one-ofs. And for stations like Bayview, the station art that extends onto the floor level will be completely destroyed and would most likely need to be redone.

All these will add up to very significant costs, that’s on top of the political capital needed to convince the society that a perfectly fine subway line need to be taken apart just so that people don’t have to get off their butts and walk 200 meters on the SAME LEVEL to change trains.

TTC is proving how incompetent it is...

1-They will build the tunnel with subway specs and they would rather transform Don Mills than just go to Consumers,Victoria Park or Agincourt and built a station that fits both technology????

2-No LRT to STC???

3-No plan to increase speed??? They will use 1 Billion dollar to barely increase speed so we get a lovely sunday ride on Sheppard East??? How cute... This isn't Queen Street...

Shameful waste of Money.

The project would have been more acceptable if they had

A-Choose the 800m stops with close to subway speed and a parallele 85 bus every 30mins.

B-Goes to Scarborough Center. A 85 Bus from Morningside to the next LRT Station on Sheppard would have been more than enough.

C-Having the subway to Agincourt and build the station like the image I put earlier of Montreal Lionel Groulx Station.

LRT on one side and subway on the other side. Those going west just cross the platform and vice-versa

C'mon TTC...you could have done better. Maybe this compromise approch would convince a few councillors or the next Miller's opponents who will run for Mayor?

Sheppard East the way it is now is not good.
My suggestions are realistic. If subway doesn't reach a consensu among us, maybe this could?

***I'm 150% pro-subway on Sheppard*** but I can find a compromise... How about those who are against the subway? I still think as citizens we have to do something...

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Ansem,

While I appreciate your support for extending the subway, the Lionel Groulx platform is not the appropriate model for a transfer/interchange. Whatever the station (be it Don Mills or VP or Agincourt), it will be a terminus for both LRT and subway. That means a single platform (as planned by the TTC) with the subway on one side and the LRT on the other is the most appropriate way to transfer. We won't have four lines in this station, we'll have two. We don't need a complex transfer. The only time that would change is if/when the subway were to be extended onwards to STC while the LRT was still terminating at the the same point.

 

[Ansem]

^ Ansem,

While I appreciate your support for extending the subway, the Lionel Groulx platform is not the appropriate model for a transfer/interchange. Whatever the station (be it Don Mills or VP or Agincourt), it will be a terminus for both LRT and subway. That means a single platform (as planned by the TTC) with the subway on one side and the LRT on the other is the most appropriate way to transfer. We won't have four lines in this station, we'll have two. We don't need a complex transfer. The only time that would change is if/when the subway were to be extended onwards to STC while the LRT was still terminating at the the same point.

Then what about the other points of making the LRT faster with 800m stops with the 85 still active and going to STC?

 

[Justin10000]

As a citizen, I am 150% for the SELRT, because I understand the concept of compromise, and financial reality. Sometimes, you have to leave fantasy network land, and understand plans, and travel patterns change.
If the TTC report is correct, the 190 Rocket does not even break 10,000 riders a day to STC! IF there was a need for a subway to STC from Don Mills, you'd think people would be jamming the buses, and service would be better than 5 minutes during rush hour. The 85 has a ridership of around 28,000. Clearly there is greater demand along Sheppard compared to going to STC.
As much as people claim this is going to screw up transit in Scarborough, I don't buy it.

 

[Ansem]

As a citizen, I am 150% for the SELRT, because I understand the concept of compromise, and financial reality. Sometimes, you have to leave fantasy network land, and understand plans, and travel patterns change.
If the TTC report is correct, the 190 Rocket does not even break 10,000 riders a day to STC! IF there was a need for a subway to STC from Don Mills, you'd think people would be jamming the buses, and service would be better than 5 minutes during rush hour. The 85 has a ridership of around 28,000. Clearly there is greater demand along Sheppard compared to going to STC.
As much as people claim this is going to screw up transit in Scarborough, I don't buy it.

Are you saying the LRT should not go to STC?

 

[Justin10000]

There is little need to connect to the STC from Don Mills at this moment. There will be a connection in Malvern, and with the existing perpdindicular routes to the SELRT. People have many options.

 

[Ansem]

There is little need to connect to the STC from Don Mills at this moment. There will be a connection in Malvern, and with the existing perpdindicular routes to the SELRT. People have many options.

Then sorry....

You are seriously...not serious...lol
Implying that having a direct link between NYC and STC is not needed is...No comments....

What can I say to that????

Let's get rid of the 190 bus then...

Do you live there? do you commute frequently In the Sheppard corridor...at peak time? I do and .... whatever

 

[kEiThZ]

The LRT should have spurs to STC because STC is the hub for transport in this region. This could be a spur down McCowan as Metrolinx has proposed. Or it could be my suggestion: build a Progress LRT instead of the SRT extension to Malvern and interline the Sheppard East LRT to STC with that line.

 

[nfitz]

In the last Transit City report TTC said that they will be studying a branch on the Sheppard LRT via McCowan Road to Scarborough Centre, as well as an extension to the zoo.

 

[kEiThZ]

As a citizen, I am 150% for the SELRT, because I understand the concept of compromise, and financial reality. Sometimes, you have to leave fantasy network land, and understand plans, and travel patterns change.
If the TTC report is correct, the 190 Rocket does not even break 10,000 riders a day to STC! IF there was a need for a subway to STC from Don Mills, you'd think people would be jamming the buses, and service would be better than 5 minutes during rush hour. The 85 has a ridership of around 28,000. Clearly there is greater demand along Sheppard compared to going to STC.
As much as people claim this is going to screw up transit in Scarborough, I don't buy it.

1. The 190 only connects Don Mills station and STC. The amount of ridership for SOLELY this connection is appropriate.

2. The 85 does not serve STC. The majority of riders from eastern Scarborough traveling to STC will use other bus routes.

3. The 28 000 ridership for the 85 is not evenly distributed along the route. The bulk of it comes from west of Kennedy. Those riders benefit only marginally (or not at all...see below) from LRT, while areas with less ridership (such as Malvern) benefit much more.

4. Many riders will face longer total travel times because of increased headways for the LRT, which won't be overcome the 5kph speed advantage of LRT. The closer one gets to Don Mills, the more true this statement becomes. In the best case scenario, the LRT will save 14 mins from Meadowvale to Don Mills. However, if you are traveling from Vic Park to Don Mills, the LRT will only save you 2-3 mins at best. Any significant increase in headways will cancel out that time savings. At present the TTC is proposing 5 min headways...a far cry from what's available with today's bus service and what could be done to improve at minimal cost with buses.

5. Your point about practicality and compromise is noted. But is it practical or worth compromising if the plan is actually a waste of money? I'd rather the government not spend a billion bucks to give whole chunks of the city worse service and save commuters from my neighbourhood about 10 mins at best.

 

[Ansem]

800m Stop pacing+Extra 10kph= True LRT

400m Stop pacing+Extra 5kph= Glorified, overpriced STREETCAR...

 

[kEiThZ]

800m Stop pacing+Extra 10kph= True LRT

400m Stop pacing+Extra 5kph= Glorified, overpriced STREETCAR...

But 800m stop spacing would require the TTC to operate a parallel bus service. The EA covered this option. They didn't project an extra 10 kph. At best, the benefit of going to 800m stop spacing was in the 3 kph ballpark (getting it to 26 kph - same as Eglinton). A 10 kph boost would make the LRT faster than the subway (which runs at 30 kph)...obviously not going to happen.

 

[lead82]

400m stops is ridiculously close for the suburbs. Torontonians need to learn how to walk. walking 400-500m to a transit stop is not such a terrible thing. That would only be for those not living along the street. For those living near the street, 800m stops would in fact mean at most a 400m walk to a stop, and in practice most would live less than 400m from a stop.

Thus having 800m stops would not require a parallel bus service.

 

[Ansem]

But 800m stop spacing would require the TTC to operate a parallel bus service. The EA covered this option. They didn't project an extra 10 kph. At best, the benefit of going to 800m stop spacing was in the 3 kph ballpark (getting it to 26 kph - same as Eglinton). A 10 kph boost would make the LRT faster than the subway (which runs at 30 kph)...obviously not going to happen.

I don't mind a 30 minutes bus service...
The point of the LRT is to **improve** existing transit.

How can anyone digest that a Billions dollars later, travel time will increase...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

As a citizen, I am 150% for the SELRT, because I understand the concept of compromise, and financial reality. Sometimes, you have to leave fantasy network land, and understand plans, and travel patterns change.
If the TTC report is correct, the 190 Rocket does not even break 10,000 riders a day to STC! IF there was a need for a subway to STC from Don Mills, you'd think people would be jamming the buses, and service would be better than 5 minutes during rush hour. The 85 has a ridership of around 28,000. Clearly there is greater demand along Sheppard compared to going to STC.
As much as people claim this is going to screw up transit in Scarborough, I don't buy it.

The reality is that we can't afford to spend $1.2B (and that's before possible branches to STC and the Zoo) to replace buses on a whim and end up with service that even the EA says won't really be any better, let alone better than what improved bus routes could do. This LRT line was the fantasy of a few people and this fantasy is coming true due to funding windfalls. As a citizen, you cannot afford these kind of transit projects. $1.2B so that a few people can optimistically save, what, 5 minutes on one portion of their commute?

The 190's ridership has climbed every year and continues to rise, by the way. It takes time to build ridership along routes.

A bus actually leaves Don Mills station and travels east along Sheppard almost once every 90 seconds during rush hour, though they don't all continue for long distances. Sheppard already has a frequency under 5 minutes, and the 190 has a frequency of 5.5 minutes overlapping the busiest part of Sheppard. Four additional routes also overlap for a little while, again providing some service to the busiest part of Sheppard East.