Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Except that actual crosstown ridership for the BD line isn't that high. How many of you have actually ridden the line from say Kipling to Kennedy during rush and noted the number of passengers in the same car with you from start to end? Or even say from Dundas to Main? That's not to mention Kipling/Islington is a significant node receiving traffic from MT.

Here is my alternate suggestion - extend the tunnel westward from Sheppard to Finch West and eastward to Victoria Park and convert the entire line to LRT, with select underground stations at key intersections. Focus on STC being served by a BD extension and DRL along Don Mills to Sheppard.

AoD

 

[LAz]

facepalm after facepalm when I look at what's going on with this sheppard stuff...



Here's a question...
...how did they just say they're building LRT? For example, recently in Chicago the CTA (TTC's equivalent) was considering extending three lines by a little bit... they had public meetings for all of those lines. They invited the public to get their input and whatnot. It was really something good. A collaborative process that reaches out to the community. I believe this is called scoping - no? Tell me now, the authoritarian thug assholes in Toronto do not have this participatory planning? They just pull some crap out of their @$$ and give it to us. They wrap it in a nice package so that we take it in without much resistance. Is that what is going on? Where is the input from people. On top of that - where is the condemning outrage????

Here is my alternate suggestion - extend the tunnel westward from Sheppard to Finch West and eastward to Victoria Park and convert the entire line to LRT, with select underground stations at key intersections. Focus on STC being served by a BD extension and DRL along Don Mills to Sheppard.

A moronic idea if I ever have heard one. Nobody has ever converted a rapid transit line into a tram line. GAWD GAWD GAWD. *double facepalm*

If anything there should be a westward rapid transit expansion to jane, to link up with that tram there.







Note to the guys about the green line - the subway is used mainly for short trips I believe. Not sure. But, it sure the hell is very effective.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Note that the Sheppard LRT EA does not explicitly say 5000 peak riders is the projection for a subway extension, it says it'd be 5000 for an elevated line or something that moves at subway speeds. We'd have to know exactly what was modelled to be sure...the language is very bizarre.

I don't believe either because, as I stated earlier, TTC regularly misses in their estimates by +-50%. Sheppards numbers are launch were well below expected.

RTES estimates were put together before Sheppard had actual passengers.

I don't believe the LRT number, and the RTES number is almost certainly incorrect.

48,000 daily riders was the projection, but when was that projection made? Was it for the Yonge to Victoria Park stretch or was it made after the line was cut back? How many bus routes did it assume were funnelled to Sheppard stations? How many condos were to be built by then? How much was added to sell the line politically? Etc., etc. If I had a copy of the EA, I'd check...maybe I'll see if they have one at the urban affairs library. They're certainly not helping to maximize and secure the stubway's ridership base by having vehicles sit in the station for 5 minutes until the train is overcrowded, or routinely leaving the station just as a flood of people begin rushing up the stairs. There's no reason why people should be left behind on the platform, but it happens. 5 minutes or even 3 minutes can be a noticeable irritant when needlessly tacked onto a commute. Still, stubway ridership has gone up by at least 33% since the line opened.

The TTC does get these numbers wrong a lot. They predicted 1500 trips a day on the 190, but it's over 8000 now, and service has needed continuous annual improvements. They underestimated the number of new trips to STC and underestimated how useful and fast the 190 would be for various trips between Don Mills and Kennedy...the 190 has not just cannibalized the 85.

We know that Transit City projections are wildly inflated for political reasons. Finch West's ridership, for instance, is projected to explode to approximately more than triple what it will be after the Spadina line is extended. 50% growth is enormous and may be possible if the line extends through Humber/Woodbine/Pearson (it'd help if the NW city wards weren't plummetting in population) but 200% growth or more is ridiculous. It certainly calls into question the necessity of various transit alternatives when arguments are based in part on 'capacity.'

 

[SunriseChampion]

Forget ridership estimates for a second.

I have a serious and very valid question: why was the Sheppard Subway even started if there was slim chance of someone coming up with the oh-so-bloody- bright idea of finishing it?
Why does it exist?
Who builds a subway to nowhere?
Who doesn't finish what's been started?
Why don't they finish what's been started?

Ok, more than one question, but still. Quite valid. I would really be interested in hearing the answers to those queries.

 

[LAz]

Forget ridership estimates for a second.

I have a serious and very valid question: why was the Sheppard Subway even started if there was slim chance of someone coming up with the oh-so-bloody- bright idea of finishing it?
Why does it exist?
Who builds a subway to nowhere?
Who doesn't finish what's been started?
Why don't they finish what's been started?

Ok, more than one question, but still. Quite valid. I would really be interested in hearing the answers to those queries.

Well now it makes sense why the dictators in charge do not have participatory planning. They will never get their plans through. I bet lobbyists are funding the assholes in charge, to ruin our city.
*throws up*


And I can assure you that your questions are not welcome. Trust me, those who get asked questions that make too much sense are hated. I had much experience with that at my school. Don't risk your life. This is much bigger. So much money involved, thanks to corruption it will just be spent on shit to give profits to some companies- probably those of millar's friends.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Forget ridership estimates for a second.

I have a serious and very valid question: why was the Sheppard Subway even started if there was slim chance of someone coming up with the oh-so-bloody- bright idea of finishing it?
Why does it exist?
Who builds a subway to nowhere?
Who doesn't finish what's been started?
Why don't they finish what's been started?

Ok, more than one question, but still. Quite valid. I would really be interested in hearing the answers to those queries.

Who said chances were slim of it being extended? Things don't become true just because you post them on the internet. Back in the 80s/90s, chances were not slim...plans and policies existed until they were changed. It was going to be extended eventually until it suddenly wasn't going to be extended anymore.

If they knew with absolute certainty that it would never be extended, would they have still built it? No. No one ever proposes fragments of transit lines just for the hell of it, even though fragments are sometimes all that gets built.

edit - Even Lastman's melgalomania wanted downtown North York to be at the centre of things, which meant a 4-way subway interchange, not just 4 more stations to unlock density targets. The triple platform isn't there just to have spent a little more money for the hell of it. As for "dictators in charge," the cancellation of transit plans like extensions of Sheppard out to more logical and useful termini that is more an act of unilaterality than proposing them.

Oh, and if the Fairview Mall area is nowhere, what's somewhere? Kowloon? Manhattan?

 

[leopetr]

Here's a question...
...how did they just say they're building LRT? For example, recently in Chicago the CTA (TTC's equivalent) was considering extending three lines by a little bit... they had public meetings for all of those lines. They invited the public to get their input and whatnot. It was really something good. A collaborative process that reaches out to the community. I believe this is called scoping - no? Tell me now, the authoritarian thug assholes in Toronto do not have this participatory planning?

There were community meetings and participatory planning on this starting in April 2008. BRT was rejected early on and these three options were considered:
1. Surface LRT from Don Mills
2. Underground LRT from Don Mills to Consumers Road
3. Subway extension to Consumers Road where it would connect with the LRT

Option 2 was chosen following the community meetings and participatory planning.

 

[LAz]

There were community meetings and participatory planning on this starting in April 2008. BRT was rejected early on and these three options were considered:
1. Surface LRT from Don Mills
2. Underground LRT from Don Mills to Consumers Road
3. Subway extension to Consumers Road where it would connect with the LRT

Option 2 was chosen following the community meetings and participatory planning.

Two things...

1) this planning seemed to impose that there will be LRT. The only thing offered was a small extension of the subway. Not much at all.

2) where was the outrage at the meetings? Where were all of you guys? I have my excuse. I was sleeping or sitting like a bum hundreds of km away.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Two things...

1) this planning seemed to impose that there will be LRT. The only thing offered was a small extension of the subway. Not much at all.

2) where was the outrage at the meetings? Where were all of you guys? I have my excuse. I was sleeping or sitting like a bum hundreds of km away.

Yes, an LRT line was the only option. BRT and a subway extension were rejected as a formality, like the ubiquitous 'do nothing' option, and not through the study process.

Nothing anyone said or could have said made a difference at the public meetings, or via email, or by talking to politicians, or whatever other normal avenues of appeal exist. The only input of substance that they were looking to gather was for a few trivial details like the inclusion or exclusion of a couple of midblock stops. Outrage at meetings wouldn't accomplish anything...it didn't work for the replacing the SRT with a Danforth extension, even though that had enormous public support, the support of councillors, and was actually cheaper than other alternatives. The public is good at fighting to get something stopped, but not very good at fighting for something else or something new to get started.

But since Transit City was a plan to build a specific set of light rail lines, it's not like anyone was actually surprised by the outcome.

 

[nfitz]

But since Transit City was a plan to build a specific set of light rail lines, it's not like anyone was actually surprised by the outcome.

It's a plan on where to stick LRT. We have seen evolution. The EA they had for LRT on Kingston Road south of Eglinton turned to BRT and is now in the Transit City Bus Plan. The work on Scarborough RT turned the technology from the existing units to LRT, so it was added to the Transit City LRT plans. Earlier talk of a Yonge LRT north of Finch turned into subway, so it's now a separate project. And there have been suggestions that the south end of the Don Mills LRT may make more sense as subway as well.

So it's not like the whole thing has been totally static during the EA process. In addition we've seen changes to the routes, such as the Eglinton LRT stop at Brentcliffe moved to Laird, and other stops removed to speed up the line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's a plan on where to stick LRT. We have seen evolution. The EA they had for LRT on Kingston Road south of Eglinton turned to BRT and is now in the Transit City Bus Plan. The work on Scarborough RT turned the technology from the existing units to LRT, so it was added to the Transit City LRT plans. Earlier talk of a Yonge LRT north of Finch turned into subway, so it's now a separate project.

And none of this is Transit City. Reread the sentence you just quoted.

And there have been suggestions that the south end of the Don Mills LRT may make more sense as subway as well. So it's not like the whole thing has been totally static during the EA process. In addition we've seen changes to the routes, such as the Eglinton LRT stop at Brentcliffe moved to Laird, and other stops removed to speed up the line.

Suggestions that other things "may make more sense" have been made about every single line. Don Mills isn't over yet because the DRL is still something being avoided like the plague.

A Brentcliffe stop moved two blocks to Laird...wow, what evolution!

 

[nfitz]

And none of this is Transit City.

So you are saying the "Transit City Bus Plan" isn't part of Transit City? Even with the Transit City logo on the cover, and even when that report discussed both the Transit City Bus Plan and the Transit City Light Rail Plan?

So your complaiint is that the "Transit City Light Rail Plan" only considers Light Rail? Given that segments originally discussed for light rail are now BRT and subway, I just can't fathom this comment.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So you are saying the "Transit City Bus Plan" isn't part of Transit City? Even with the Transit City logo on the cover, and even when that report discussed both the Transit City Bus Plan and the Transit City Light Rail Plan?

So your complaiint is that the "Transit City Light Rail Plan" only considers Light Rail? Given that segments originally discussed for light rail are now BRT and subway, I just can't fathom this comment.

No, there's not much you can fathom.

 

[nfitz]

No, there's not much you can fathom.

Then perhaps you can clarify for your comment, than simply being rude (and violating posting guidelines).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Then perhaps you can clarify for your comment, than simply being rude (and violating posting guidelines).

If you're not going to read posts in the context of the thread, just don't respond. It's that simple.

LAz said "1) this planning seemed to impose that there will be LRT [on Sheppard]." An LRT line was decided upon before a study, not recommended after a study. It's not a secret and no one was surprised by the EA's outcome. This is all in the post you quoted without reading.

Lines like Jane may end up being built differently or not at all but since the money ran out only 3/7 of the way through the plan, we can't know right now.