Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[nfitz]

If you're not going to read posts in the context of the thread, just don't respond. It's that simple.

As far as I know, I have. But with over 2,000 posts in this thread, many off-topic, perhaps I've missed something ... and if so, that is no justification for your incivility

LAz said "1) this planning seemed to impose that there will be LRT [on Sheppard]." An LRT line was decided upon before a study, not recommended after a study. It's not a secret and no one was surprised by the EA's outcome.

Yes, I read that. It was repeated in the post I quoted.

This is all in the post you quoted without reading.

Of course I read it. My gosh, if you lie about this, what else have you lied about?

Lines like Jane may end up being built differently or not at all but since the money ran out only 3/7 of the way through the plan, we can't know right now.

Other EAs that were completed early have seen changes. The piece of Scarborough-Malvern north of Sheppard was removed, and that line was shifted to get closer to UT Scarborough. My comment stands. It's a plan on where to stick LRT. We have seen evolution.

I really object to you resorting to lies to try and make your point. It's out of line and chlidlish.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

As far as I know, I have. But with over 2,000 posts in this thread, many off-topic, perhaps I've missed something ... and if so, that is no justification for your incivility

Yes, I read that. It was repeated in the post I quoted.

Of course I read it. My gosh, if you lie about this, what else have you lied about?

Other EAs that were completed early have seen changes. The piece of Scarborough-Malvern north of Sheppard was removed, and that line was shifted to get closer to UT Scarborough. My comment stands. It's a plan on where to stick LRT. We have seen evolution.

I really object to you resorting to lies to try and make your point. It's out of line and chlidlish.

Nfitz, please put me on your ignore list so the forum doesn't need to suffer through the snivelling, trolling gibberish you spew everytime you see that I've posted anything.

Lies? I didn't say there were zero changes to Sheppard. I said any changes were trivial and that the Sheppard EA confirmed the 'need' for an LRT line because an LRT line was proposed and was the only option. As usual, you didn't read the posts, or you don't understand them.

 

[nfitz]

Nfitz, please put me on your ignore list so the forum doesn't need to suffer through the snivelling, trolling gibberish you spew everytime you see that I've posted anything.

You were on my ignore list, however the ignore list broke with the forum "upgrade", and now when you view a thread where the first person on any page is ignored, the entire page is blank.

Why you insist on disrupting this thread about the Sheppard East LRT with these fantasies about subway lines that will never be built, and have no political support, is beyond me.

Your position is clear, you'd prefer subway. It didn't happen. It's not happening. Get over it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You were on my ignore list, however the ignore list broke with the forum "upgrade", and now when you view a thread where the first person on any page is ignored, the entire page is blank.

Yes lies. You clearly said I hadn't read a post, that you knew I had. That is a lie. You are a liar.

Why you insist on disrupting this thread about the Sheppard East LRT with these fantasies about subway lines that will never be built, and have no political support, is beyond me.

Your position is clear, you'd prefer subway. It didn't happen. It's not happening. Get over it.

Nfitz, my position is that improved Rocket service will be a successful interim measure until the subway extended at some point in the future, and that spending over $1.2B on an LRT line that offers absolutely zero benefits to transit users is a massive and irresponsible waste of money. You should already know that, but it seems you just can't "fathom" posts even if you do read them.

 

[nfitz]

Zero benefits? Where do you get this stuff. We discussed earlier how the significant speed increase from 15 km/hr to 22 km/hr turns a 40-minute ride into a 27-minute ride, saving 13-minutes on a 10-km trip.

You see no benefit in that, but you'd advocate that we'd spend another $2-billion to save another 7 minutes ... and that would be a benefit?

You might think that makes sense ... but I can't fathom it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Zero benefits? Where do you get this stuff. We discussed earlier how the significant speed increase from 15 km/hr to 22 km/hr turns a 40-minute ride into a 27-minute ride, saving 13-minutes on a 10-km trip.

You see no benefit in that, but you'd advocate that we'd spend another $2-billion to save another 7 minutes ... and that would be a benefit?

You might think that makes sense ... but I can't fathom it.

I've showed you before why those numbers are wrong.

 

[nfitz]

Yet you still keep using them.

Enough of this ... I'll try and suffer gladly.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yet you still keep using them.

Enough of this ... I'll try and suffer gladly.

Enough when someone notes that you've misinterpreted some simple numbers...what a surprise.

Add POP to improved Rocket service and a few other dirt-cheap details and buses will match whatever promises made by the LRT EA. Then, we can take that saved billion dollars and maybe actually spend it on transit.

 

[SunriseChampion]

So.....the reason why things can't be completed as started is............

What a silly city we live in. I wonder if outsiders laugh at us often.


Ok, I'll endeavour to stop now. It really bothers me that the Sheppard Subway is being stunted for the forseeable future by a 'Transfer Shitty'-- or whatever you wanna call it-- LRT line on Sheppard East. It's a huge waste. It's incomplete. It adds transfers(!!!!).
It just bothers me that it can't be completed. That is all.

 

[leopetr]

Enough someone notes that you've misinterpreted some simple numbers...what a surprise.

Add POP to improved Rocket service and a few other dirt-cheap details and buses will match whatever promises made by the LRT EA.

Except for LRT's capacity, reliability (buses get stuck in traffic), ride quality (rails are smoother), streetscape improvements (even if we ignore bike lanes and beautification, a street with a streetcar median is much easier to jaywalk across), station infrastructure (shelters with next vehicle displays), and noise levels (a diesel engine is louder than an electric one). Oh, and buses tear up pavement and cause potholes like nothing else on the street.

 

[kEiThZ]

So.....the reason why things can't be completed as started is............

What a silly city we live in. I wonder if outsiders laugh at us often.


Ok, I'll endeavour to stop now. It really bothers me that the Sheppard Subway is being stunted for the forseeable future by a 'Transfer Shitty'-- or whatever you wanna call it-- LRT line on Sheppard East. It's a huge waste. It's incomplete. It adds transfers(!!!!).
It just bothers me that it can't be completed. That is all.

To be fair people will still need to transfer. They'll just be fewer of them if the subway is extended. It's ridiculous to see this as subway envy. The subways should end at a logical place. Agincourt is far more logical as a hub than Don Mills.

 

[LAz]

Yes, an LRT line was the only option. BRT and a subway extension were rejected as a formality, like the ubiquitous 'do nothing' option, and not through the study process.

Nothing anyone said or could have said made a difference at the public meetings, or via email, or by talking to politicians, or whatever other normal avenues of appeal exist. The only input of substance that they were looking to gather was for a few trivial details like the inclusion or exclusion of a couple of midblock stops. Outrage at meetings wouldn't accomplish anything...it didn't work for the replacing the SRT with a Danforth extension, even though that had enormous public support, the support of councillors, and was actually cheaper than other alternatives. The public is good at fighting to get something stopped, but not very good at fighting for something else or something new to get started.

But since Transit City was a plan to build a specific set of light rail lines, it's not like anyone was actually surprised by the outcome.

Jeeze, so people were not allowed to ask questions or do stuff like that I guess. Sigh.

At a recent yellow line extension thing at the CTA people were in upheaval about this. All because it was supposedly giong to extend the line up to some high-school. People were pissed really bad at the meeting. The people set the tone, not the organizers. They must not be allowed to set the pace/tone.

At a CMAP(Chicago Metropolitan Area Planning, or something like that) meeting in Chicago some guy literally ripped the morons an extra asshole, the way that he tore up their highway expansion plan. He totally tore them up.


edit:

I've showed you before why those numbers are wrong.

And what makes you think they give a #%&*$& or two?

 

[drum118]

7 minute saving for ""WHO"" and ""HOW MANY??""

You Spend $2B for a few ppl daily while 10's of 1,000's get nothing...................................Unbelievable and a waste of resources.

How do you expect business to stay in business when no one see them as they are either underground or speeding by them in a car??

 

[LAz]

7 minute saving for ""WHO"" and ""HOW MANY??""

You Spend $2B for a few ppl daily while 10's of 1,000's get nothing...................................Unbelievable and a waste of resources.

How do you expect business to stay in business when no one see them as they are either underground or speeding by them in a car??

2 bil is an exaggeration, no?

Subways create new land use patterns. If anything they encourage more walking and are in effect a really good alternative to the car. On top of that they are "rapid transit", which is absolutely vital if mass transit is going to be competing with the car.

There have been many criticisms of our stub-line. But, you know what? It's a pretty nice sparkling success - is it not?!

Why do you expect that everyone on the TRAM will be smiling and looking at businesses thinking OH BOY LETS GO SHOP HERE. It's not quite like that. If anything, a subway station would generate much walkability - for those who enter and exit those stations. But, consider this... you want to get somewhere fast. You do not want to waste time. You want to go shopping or something. It would be much faster and better for you or your business if this faster mode of transportation took you to where you want to go. No? You also seem to have ignored advertisement in TTC stations. Nearby businesses could easily advertise.

Your concerns are really a lame point. Where is the critical thought behind anything that you said?

while 10's of 1,000's get nothing

There are hundreds of thousands who are getting nothing from the tram line on sheppard.

 

[kettal]

2 bil is an exaggeration, no?

Subways create new land use patterns. If anything they encourage more walking and are in effect a really good alternative to the car. On top of that they are "rapid transit", which is absolutely vital if mass transit is going to be competing with the car.

There have been many criticisms of our stub-line. But, you know what? It's a pretty nice sparkling success - is it not?!

Why do you expect that everyone on the TRAM will be smiling and looking at businesses thinking OH BOY LETS GO SHOP HERE. It's not quite like that. If anything, a subway station would generate much walkability - for those who enter and exit those stations. But, consider this... you want to get somewhere fast. You do not want to waste time. You want to go shopping or something. It would be much faster and better for you or your business if this faster mode of transportation took you to where you want to go. No? You also seem to have ignored advertisement in TTC stations. Nearby businesses could easily advertise.

Your concerns are really a lame point. Where is the critical thought behind anything that you said?




There are hundreds of thousands who are getting nothing from the tram line on sheppard.

Queen Street is a highly successful shopping area, where the majority of patrons arrive on streetcar. In comparison, Yonge Street downtown has a lot of dollar stores, novelty crap, and fake ID shops.

And I'd love for you to tell me what "walkability" was generated by Bayview Station? how about Leslie Station? Wilson? Just about every subway station area which is "walkable" was made walkable when a tram was there, before the subway was built.

I'm not trying to prove that one is better than the other, I just want you to realize what a load of BS you just spewed.