LAz
Active Member
Does anyone know where I can get the sheppard subway EA?
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Dan416
Senior Member
The EA istelf? Well the EA only goes to Vic Park IIRC, but I'm not sure. RTES shows the subway going to STC. As for where, I'd imagine it'd be somewhere on the City of Toronto's website, but that was a long time ago.
nfitz
Superstar
Correct ... as we pointed out earlier in the thread, the actual speed for the first 10 km, is only 15 km/hr ... not including terminal time. And that's assuming it's running on time. I have heard comments that it does not always run on time.
nfitz
Superstar
Well, it should intersect the SRT at Markham Road ... but I agree the case for LRT east of Markham Road is not that strong. It's a shame that TTC is trying to reduce transfers.
LAz
Active Member
Ah, look what I found. http://web.archive.org/web/20070930045658/http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/rtes2002.pdf
Man it depresses me just browsing through it... it's such a slap in the face to abandon the subway in favor of tram transport.
Transit city... taking rapid out of transit!
http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/facepalm1.jpg
http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/6512/original/DoubleFacePalm.jpg
Man it depresses me just browsing through it... it's such a slap in the face to abandon the subway in favor of tram transport.
Transit city... taking rapid out of transit!
http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/facepalm1.jpg
http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/6512/original/DoubleFacePalm.jpg
Dan416
Senior Member
I agree it is pretty depressing. I remember looking up RTES when I was just a young one digging through municipal materials at the Mississauga Central Library. Back then it depressed me that the Bloor westerly extension was put at the bottom of the priorities list since it didn't have support on this side of Etobicoke creek. Now I'm depressed that virtually all of RTES has been shelved.
kettal
Banned
I understand the excitement at the thought of a subway reach your neighbourhood. But the RTES is pretty poor considering that every extension on there (except STC) goes through some of the lowest density areas on the map. The story goes that a certain representative of York University had a full time job lobbying the writers of this document to meet his desires.
LAz
Active Member
Don't worry K, they will build most of those eventually. But, the opportunities lost in the meantime will be mind-blowing. In fact they already are.
Voltz
Senior Member
Barely a case for bus service? Are you for real? I know you hate the LRT but there is no need to just make stuff up.
Dan416
Senior Member
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
People are too fixated on the RTES. More troubling is how much of the RGS was ditched. The recent bus plan is ultra-lame and many of the seemingly great service improvements it offers are nothing more than adding literally one or two buses to a route, or one or two queue jumps, and calling it a day. Instead of incrementally adding and improving service and building ROWs over time, we've gone straight to the most expensive and unsustainable options available. An LRT-only plan means nothing can be done without investments of a billion dollars or more.
On a corridor like Sheppard, substantial and real transit improvements can be had for $100M, or we can reach identical transit goals, but get bike lanes and new streetscaping, by spending $1.2B. We can pay for this because of a record funding promise, but we can't afford this. By the time potential extensions to STC and the Zoo are added, the underground connection is built, the maintenance yard is built, the whole thing is finished, and the inflation is added, I'll be very surprised if the final cost comes in under $1.5B, and not surprised if it goes over $2B. We get bike lanes, a reduction in frequency, and a grade-separated GO crossing that would have been built eventually. Wow.
The one sticky point is the capacity, but, again, is it needed here and now? Subway-type demand levels are a chicken/egg scenario and will under no circumstances materialize without a subway extension. Everyone with any need to take the Sheppard bus is already taking it. The city seems to think Sheppard's ridership will double through the miracles of light rail, but this is very delusional. It would require well over 10,000 drivers a day who live within walking distance of Sheppard to say "you know what, the bus portion of my commute has been slashed from 35 minutes to 32 minutes, so I'm gonna leave the car at home and get to work in only twice the time it takes to drive, for no longer will it take 2.1 times as long to take the TTC!"
This ignores reality and only looks at the 85 going eastbound at 5pm, with no improvements - no POP/fare cards, no queue jumps, no 85E or 85 Rocket, etc., etc. The 190 runs faster than that right now, as does the 85 at all other times and in all other directions (which means that most people along the corridor are already moving closer to 20km/hr, if not closer to 25 at times. A 190 can leave Don Mills sometimes 5 minutes after an 85 and catch up to it by Victoria Park...it doesn't take much imagination to see the potential speed hike by introducing an 85E. Some kind of swipe/scan fare card could slash minutes from the bus trip as well.
On a corridor like Sheppard, substantial and real transit improvements can be had for $100M, or we can reach identical transit goals, but get bike lanes and new streetscaping, by spending $1.2B. We can pay for this because of a record funding promise, but we can't afford this. By the time potential extensions to STC and the Zoo are added, the underground connection is built, the maintenance yard is built, the whole thing is finished, and the inflation is added, I'll be very surprised if the final cost comes in under $1.5B, and not surprised if it goes over $2B. We get bike lanes, a reduction in frequency, and a grade-separated GO crossing that would have been built eventually. Wow.
The one sticky point is the capacity, but, again, is it needed here and now? Subway-type demand levels are a chicken/egg scenario and will under no circumstances materialize without a subway extension. Everyone with any need to take the Sheppard bus is already taking it. The city seems to think Sheppard's ridership will double through the miracles of light rail, but this is very delusional. It would require well over 10,000 drivers a day who live within walking distance of Sheppard to say "you know what, the bus portion of my commute has been slashed from 35 minutes to 32 minutes, so I'm gonna leave the car at home and get to work in only twice the time it takes to drive, for no longer will it take 2.1 times as long to take the TTC!"
This ignores reality and only looks at the 85 going eastbound at 5pm, with no improvements - no POP/fare cards, no queue jumps, no 85E or 85 Rocket, etc., etc. The 190 runs faster than that right now, as does the 85 at all other times and in all other directions (which means that most people along the corridor are already moving closer to 20km/hr, if not closer to 25 at times. A 190 can leave Don Mills sometimes 5 minutes after an 85 and catch up to it by Victoria Park...it doesn't take much imagination to see the potential speed hike by introducing an 85E. Some kind of swipe/scan fare card could slash minutes from the bus trip as well.
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SteveMunro
New Member
Yes, Professor Ted Spence was quite a fixture at TTC meetings for years as the ever-present face of York University. There's a vague resemblance between the two of us (older white men with beards and longish hair), and on one occasion a less-than-attentive member of the Commission started talking to me as if I were him. Now that the Spadina subway is underway, Spence has vanished from the scene.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I grew up in Malvern. Right off Washburn way. My parent's still live there. And I am there regularly. I know how much demand is there, east of Agincourt. I am not making up anything. Ride the 85 and check it out. Most of the ridership is west of McCowan and another chunk gets off at Markham. From there riders really start to taper off.
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Voltz
Senior Member
And I live just off of Meadowvale, while I would never say there is enough demand for LRT out here, there is plenty more than enough to justify bus service.
fanoftoronto
Active Member
A subway extension attracts more riders than an lrt line. The EA that says 5000 is the demand is for the LRT line. Check the RTES, it says 8400 pphpd. Here's the link to the RTES: http://web.archive.org/web/200709300...f/rtes2002.pdf
Check page 12 to get the demand estimates for an extension to STC.