Transit City Plan

[TheTigerMaster]

This is what I hope happens tomorrow:

Faced with certain defeat, Ford flips last minute and offers an amendment. Build Transit City but leave out Sheppard. Put that money towards his private/public development of the subway. If as the Chong report claims, 50-60% of the Sheppard line can be funded by the private sector, then even if the Sheppard LRT money puts up 20-30%, then the city can find the remaining 10-20%. Most people are forgetting that this is free money. The city isn't paying a dime. If we take the Sheppard LRT money and invest it in a start up fund for a Sheppard subway, it's possible that the money from private developers can be raised WaterfronToronto style and the city can pay for the rest as a capital project.

Ford can still come out a winner, but somehow I imagine him working against his own self preservation out of sheer pigheadedness. While most of me wants to see him crash and burn in a major defeat that will take him down for the rest of his time as Mayor, I do want transit built properly in this city.

I agree with Transit City as a well though out plan designed by experts but I find building an LRT on Sheppard too late of a decision now that we've starting building a subway there. If built as a subway, it could eventually be part of a continuous loop if linked to the Bloor Danforth line.

The vote tomorrow is about reinstating the Transit City plan for Eglinton, Sheppard and Finch. I don't know if the mayor can actually amend the plan. But even if he could I don't think he would win the vote.

-Most of the Transit City supporters are likely against the Sheppard extension
-The Sheppard extension would only slightly increase the length of a line. Sheppard needs a significant extension
-They already have more then enough votes to pass Transit City so theres is no reason for them to want to compromise
-Most liberal and centrist councillors are against private funding
-And most importantly, only hardcore Ford supporters seem to think that the city can actually secure the funding from the private sector

When you take all of these into consideration, there is little reason for the Transit City supporters to compromise with the mayor. Compromise may happen, but its unlikely.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

That is a very common misconception, especially made by members of Ford Nation who still believe in the superiority of 1950s-style urban planning.

Actually it is a misconception by many residents (left, centre, or right)

 

[nfitz]

Where are you getting these 1-2min differences from? please enlighten me.

We discussed at length in this thread a few days ago. Or was it one of the other 100+ Transit City threads on this board?

**EDIT: re-read the Metrolinx ridership update and you are correct peak ridership is 12, 000.

I believe the old peak was about 7,000 - perhaps 7,800 depending which study you look at. And interestingly, the old peak point was west of Yonge. The new peak point was east of Yonge.

Why would you build another LRT line 1km north if the existing transport corridor is at capacity?

Personally I wouldn't. But I'd build one 2 km north at Lawrence. This would alleviate some of the traffic on Eglinton ... though 2 km south on St. Clair E might be better to relive the Eglinton Line.

pretty sure underground platforms do not have salt and the elements exposed to them, hence it is much cheaper to constantly keep scrubbing and cleaning a tile or granite surface underground than having to spend money and replace the entire platform like is the current practice with above ground streetcar stops i.e. king and bathurst.

I frequently see TTC staff doing maintenance in subway stations. I extremely seldom see them at a surface station on St. Clair or Queensway. I have a hard time believing we are going to be daily floor sweeping and washing at outdoor centre-of-the-street concrete platforms.

Eglinton SHOULD be subway, Finch SHOULD be LRT.

There's absolutely no basis this other than in any fantasy let's draw lines in a map. Even completely underground with subway-like speeds the peak load doesn't justify subway.

 

[MetroMan]

The vote tomorrow is about reinstating the Transit City plan for Eglinton, Sheppard and Finch. I don't know if the mayor can actually amend the plan. But even if he could I don't think he would win the vote.

-Most of the Transit City supporters are likely against the Sheppard extension
-The Sheppard extension would only slightly increase the length of a line. Sheppard needs a significant extension
-They already have more then enough votes to pass Transit City so theres is no reason for them to want to compromise
-Most liberal and centrist councillors are against private funding
-And most importantly, only hardcore Ford supporters seem to think that the city can actually secure the funding from the private sector

When you take all of these into consideration, there is little reason for the Transit City supporters to compromise with the mayor. Compromise may happen, but its unlikely.

^ I agree with your points, however procedurally, Ford and his loyalists can offer amendments to Stintz's motion. Whether they would pass it as such, you're probably right that they wouldn't. The saving grace is that councillors might want to end this war and offer the province a single voice from the Mayor and council. That is motive to accept certain amendments. Remember, Stintz was originally offering Ford a way out with a plan supporting Eglinton LRT + Sheppard subway just last week.

Whatever comes out of council tomorrow has to be something that doesn't blow money unnecessarily on an underground Eglinton LRT, goes ahead with the desperately needed Finch LRT and finds a solution for the Scarborough RT that doesn't involve closing the line years before a replacement is available.

Sheppard is getting the short end of the stick in any scenario so far. Ford: dreamworld Sheppard subway with no funding. TransitCity: mismatch of subway and LRT. I'd like to see a compromise made there. Either fully subway to Scarborough funded in part by savings gained from reverting to Transit City or a conversion of the money losing Sheppard subway to LRT with plans to connect it to Downsview and the Finch LRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is what I hope happens tomorrow:

Faced with certain defeat, Ford flips last minute and offers an amendment. Build Transit City but leave out Sheppard. Put that money towards his private/public development of the subway. If as the Chong report claims, 50-60% of the Sheppard line can be funded by the private sector, then even if the Sheppard LRT money puts up 20-30%, then the city can find the remaining 10-20%. Most people are forgetting that this is free money. The city isn't paying a dime. If we take the Sheppard LRT money and invest it in a start up fund for a Sheppard subway, it's possible that the money from private developers can be raised WaterfronToronto style and the city can pay for the rest as a capital project.

Ford can still come out a winner, but somehow I imagine him working against his own self preservation out of sheer pigheadedness. While most of me wants to see him crash and burn in a major defeat that will take him down for the rest of his time as Mayor, I do want transit built properly in this city.

I agree with Transit City as a well though out plan designed by experts but I find building an LRT on Sheppard too late of a decision now that we've starting building a subway there. If built as a subway, it could eventually be part of a continuous loop if linked to the Bloor Danforth line.

We haven't though.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

His Worship, Mayor Robert Ford, will be appointing citizen commissioners to the TTC soon. This is a disaster. We can't have a bunch of ignorant individuals who couldn't tell you the difference between an LRT, subway, streetcar and a dog if their life depended on it running the TTC. What we need is real transit engineers running the commission. This is outrageous and I'm hoping that Council finds a way to block this decision.

 

[nfitz]

Wow, a small lost of riders due to termination at McCowan? Looks like about 50% to me. Given that these must be riders not currently using the SRT, and many of the riders gained on Eglinton are lost from B-D, it would be interesting to add the BD ridership to the bar graph for both scenarios.

Is this presentation on-line somewhere?

 

[nfitz]

His Worship, Mayor Robert Ford, will be appointing citizen commissioners to the TTC soon.

Only if he can find 22 councillors that agree with him.

 

[BMO]

There's absolutely no basis this other than in any fantasy let's draw lines in a map. Even completely underground with subway-like speeds the peak load doesn't justify subway.

There's no basis for extending a subway based solely on ridership either. You must look at the connectivity, potential for development, and in this case the regional benefit of the line. Bloor didn't have sufficient ridership levels to justify a subway, yet thankfully because of that bold decision, we have a legitimate subway line that can transport citizens from East to West.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

^ I agree with your points, however procedurally, Ford and his loyalists can offer amendments to Stintz's motion. Whether they would pass it as such, you're probably right that they wouldn't. The saving grace is that councillors might want to end this war and offer the province a single voice from the Mayor and council. That is motive to accept certain amendments. Remember, Stintz was originally offering Ford a way out with a plan supporting Eglinton LRT + Sheppard subway just last week.

Whatever comes out of council tomorrow has to be something that doesn't blow money unnecessarily on an underground Eglinton LRT, goes ahead with the desperately needed Finch LRT and finds a solution for the Scarborough RT that doesn't involve closing the line years before a replacement is available.

Sheppard is getting the short end of the stick in any scenario so far. Ford: dreamworld Sheppard subway with no funding. TransitCity: mismatch of subway and LRT. I'd like to see a compromise made there. Either fully subway to Scarborough funded in part by savings gained from reverting to Transit City or a conversion of the money losing Sheppard subway to LRT with plans to connect it to Downsview and the Finch LRT.

Dalton McGuinty has already suggested that the province will do whatever Council tells them to. And Stintz is fairly confident that the province will do whatever the Council says. So there is not really a need to have a single voice to get the province on board.

But I do agree that Sheppard needs something better. A mismatched subway and LRT is not a good plan. But unfortunately that is the best option we have at the moment for Sheppard.

 

[nfitz]

Bloor didn't have sufficient ridership levels to justify a subway.

That is absurd. We are looking at the 20-year ridership forecasts to see that Eglinton doesn't have enough riders.

Your telling the 20-year ridership forecast for the BD didn't support subway?

Also, remember that we are still putting the centre of Eglinton - which looks like the area along BD - in a subway. Are you suggesting we should have put surface LRT down Bloor street?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Only if he can find 22 councillors that agree with him.

No. The mayor has the power to appoint whoever he likes to the commission without council's permission. However if the council votes to remove the mayors power to do that his decision could be reversed.

 

[BMO]

That is absurd. We are looking at the 20-year ridership forecasts to see that Eglinton doesn't have enough riders.

Your telling the 20-year ridership forecast for the BD didn't support subway?

Also, remember that we are still putting the centre of Eglinton - which looks like the area along BD - in a subway. Are you suggesting we should have put surface LRT down Bloor street?

Based on what I've read on these forums and by articles from various transit observers, yes, i'm telling you that ridership forecasts, however many years into the future did not match a subway's ridership. If you do have proof, i'm more than willing to conceit I was wrong, like I did in an earlier post about Eglinton's updated ridership.

 

[nfitz]

No. The mayor has the power to appoint whoever he likes to the commission without council's permission. However if the council votes to remove the mayors power to do that his decision could be reversed.

I'd have to check into how they are appointed (I seem pretty sure that council voted on the current TTC commissioners in December 2010). However, the Executive Committee and then Council would have to vote to approve the make-up in board composition.

 

[MetroMan]

No. The mayor has the power to appoint whoever he likes to the commission without council's permission. However if the council votes to remove the mayors power to do that his decision could be reversed.

No he doesn't. Appointees to the TTC must be approved by council.

Read point 1-f http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.EX16.8

f. all members of the Toronto Transit Commission serve at the pleasure of City Council.