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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Thank you so much for saying this. Royson James is a "professional" contrarian (the quotes are there to indicate that he's professional only in the sense that he gets paid, not because he's a quality writer or journalist). James led the charge against Lastman's corruption when the only other people doing so seemed to be John Sewell, David Miller and Tooker Gomberg. Then James wrote polemics about Miller's "incompetence". Now he thinks Rob Ford is a disaster.

Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that support for a politician ought to be earned by virtue rather than by default (see, e.g., Glenn Greenwald's critiques of Obama-defenders), but in all of Royson James's anti-Miller rantings, I was struck by the fact that I never found a critique that had any substance, and all James was doing at the time was feeding "anti-Miller derangement syndrome". (To be fair, I thought some of James's Lastman critiques were a bit weak, too, which is striking given how critique-worthy Lastman was.)

Anyway, thanks for calling Royson James on his BS. "F*ck Royson James" might be one of the nicer things I have said about him in the last few years.

James I am sure convinced some Star readers that a PLan like FORDS was the way to go. To be honest I dont remember James ripping FORDs transit plans during his mayoral campaign dispite the fact that others saw holes in how he would finance his subway dreams.
 
500m+ stop spacing is streetcar now? You make it sound like you've never been in Toronto before.

I lived at 71 simcoe street for 5 years over top of St Andrew Station. I currently live within a 300m Walk of Eglinton wEST. And I grew up in Agincourt.

500m is close spacing for a LRT.
 
There's no way you can tell me that above ground can provide the same efficiency as underground.
Of course not ... it will add a minute or two to the travel time, assuming the same number of stops.

Especially for crosstown trips.
That would remain unchanged, so it would only add a minute or two to those trips as well, assuming the same number of stops.

What happens when capacity increases so much to warrant lower frequencies between LRT vehicles?
How many years away is that? The 2031 forecast of the current design is only a peak of 12,000 riders.

If for some unexpected reason by the 2040s or 2050s you've really got that many riders, than build another LRT line. Perhaps on Lawrence (wouldn't that be great, cutting through directly from Yonge, to Don Mills, and then into Scarborough). Or St. Clair East (from Yonge, some tunnel to get into the Don Valley, a new crossing, and then onto St. Clair East into Scarborough - that would be a great line, connecting communities that aren't even easy to drive from).

In the same time frame, you could add some grade separations at problematic intersections to remove bottlenecks.

And maybe sometime in the far future, Eglinton does have more ridership. So sometime in the 22nd century you tunnel it. I

I guess we can just have streetlights stopping every time a vehicle passes by, not to mention the fact that being above ground drastically reduces the ability for the line to run lower frequencies.
I don't see why being above ground precludes a lower frequency.

It's really not that difficult. When I purchase a computer. I purchase one that will last me a bit longer. I spend a bit more on it, and it lasts me substantially longer, and saves me money, rather than buying a newer computer that is somewhat better than what i currently have and is cheaper. I pay $1300 for 5 or 6 yrs, instead of $700 two or three times over the same period of time.
That's not the option here. The option is going from about a $700 computer to a $3,000 computer, that won't actually last any longer - and will cost significantly more to maintain and operate. How much more, for example, do you think it will cost to wash the platforms at an underground LRT station, compared to an outdoor concrete platform?

I don't support Ford's reasoning and philosophy behind his plan, but I do support the plan, and think ultimately it is what the city needs and what will provide the longest lasting benefit to all Torontonians and Ontario taxpayers, not just drivers.
It might be a benefit to a few that live on Eglinton, who will have 1-2 minutes saved on their commute. But clearly there are lot more people who benefit from also building the Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT, and extending the SRT to Sheppard/Markham.
 
I lived at 71 simcoe street for 5 years over top of St Andrew Station. I currently live within a 300m Walk of Eglinton wEST. And I grew up in Agincourt.

500m is close spacing for a LRT.
Have to agree. Coxwell-Woodbine-Main spacing is fine. 900 metres. Between Coxwell and Broadview the spacing is 600 metres, and we here lots of comments about how close the stations are. 500 metres is unnecessary.
 
Have to agree. Coxwell-Woodbine-Main spacing is fine. 900 metres. Between Coxwell and Broadview the spacing is 600 metres, and we here lots of comments about how close the stations are. 500 metres is unnecessary.

In theory, I agree with the idea of greater spacing than the existing TC plan for Eglinton. In practice, I have some trouble seeing how to eliminate 50% of the stops. My frame of reference on this subject is Bloor West Village, and on a map Jane/Runnymede/High Park/Keele is too many stops for a 2km stretch of "rapid transit". But I would have a difficult time eliminating any of those stops. Maybe the lesson is, don't assume that eliminating LRT stops after the fact will be politically palatable; get the stop spacing right the first time.
 
exactly.... once the spacing is in its difficult to eliminate... Id like to see some examples of eliminated stations.. Its just as likely that willowdale will get a new station as it is that glencarin will be removed from the system. In other words get the spacing right!

About your High Park example though the fact is that area is very dense and as many stations as there is what would you cut? However comparing the density of high park and its stations to what takes place between jane and martin grove on eglinton proves that there simply is too many stations for too few residents. The same goes for the area between victoria park and kennedy. Sure there are some residents and some businesses but not nearly enough to justify all these extra stops.
 
Of course not ... it will add a minute or two to the travel time, assuming the same number of stops.

That would remain unchanged, so it would only add a minute or two to those trips as well, assuming the same number of stops.

How many years away is that? The 2031 forecast of the current design is only a peak of 12,000 riders.

Where are you getting these 1-2min differences from? please enlighten me. Because I can tell you they are nowhere to be found. I was under the impression that the 12, 000 peak was from the original plan, and not from the updated plan, which is expected to have a substantial increase in ridership thanks to grade separation.

**EDIT: re-read the Metrolinx ridership update and you are correct peak ridership is 12, 000.

If for some unexpected reason by the 2040s or 2050s you've really got that many riders, than build another LRT line. Perhaps on Lawrence (wouldn't that be great, cutting through directly from Yonge, to Don Mills, and then into Scarborough). Or St. Clair East (from Yonge, some tunnel to get into the Don Valley, a new crossing, and then onto St. Clair East into Scarborough - that would be a great line, connecting communities that aren't even easy to drive from).

Why would you build another LRT line 1km north if the existing transport corridor is at capacity? Lawrance does not hit the same trip generators, nor does it attract the same trips as Eglinton. A DRL will achieve at relieving the Yonge line because it will hit the major trip generator which is the CBD.

An Eglinton Relief line, Lawrence LRT make not. People on Lawrence will take the Bus to Yonge, regardless of the Eglinton LRT underground or not.

In the same time frame, you could add some grade separations at problematic intersections to remove bottlenecks.

So what you propose is to have Eglinton be under construction and out of service (while this upgrades occur), because, if in fact ridership does increase, better grade separation will be required?...yea i'll let you sit on that one for a while...

I don't see why being above ground precludes a lower frequency.

Once again...I'll let you sit on that one for a while....

That's not the option here. The option is going from about a $700 computer to a $3,000 computer, that won't actually last any longer - and will cost significantly more to maintain and operate. How much more, for example, do you think it will cost to wash the platforms at an underground LRT station, compared to an outdoor concrete platform?

pretty sure underground platforms do not have salt and the elements exposed to them, hence it is much cheaper to constantly keep scrubbing and cleaning a tile or granite surface underground than having to spend money and replace the entire platform like is the current practice with above ground streetcar stops i.e. king and bathurst.

It might be a benefit to a few that live on Eglinton, who will have 1-2 minutes saved on their commute. But clearly there are lot more people who benefit from also building the Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT, and extending the SRT to Sheppard/Markham.

For that matter, putting the whole $8B towards bus expansion and maintenance would affect more people, albeit not as much time savings, but overall i bet that would benefit more people....

The whole benefit more people argument doesn't fly with me, because benefiting more people doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, it just means it is politically safe. Eglinton SHOULD be subway, Finch SHOULD be LRT. I can see Finch being LRT, and MAYBE even Sheppard. But I will not agree with Eglinton being above ground, even if it means jeopardizing Finch and Sheppard. Eglinton underground is what SHOULD be done.
 
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Where are you getting these 1-2min differences from? please enlighten me. Because I can tell you they are nowhere to be found. I was under the impression that the 12, 000 peak was from the original plan, and not from the updated plan, which is expected to have a substantial increase in ridership thanks to grade separation.

You're wrong. The grade separation isn't the reason for inflating the numbers.

pretty sure underground platforms do not have salt and the elements exposed to them, hence it is much cheaper to constantly keep scrubbing and cleaning a tile or granite surface underground than having to spend money and replace the entire platform like is the current practice with above ground streetcar stops i.e. king and bathurst.

You're wrong here too. There was no platform to begin with.
 
You're wrong. The grade separation isn't the reason for inflating the numbers.



You're wrong here too. There was no platform to begin with.

How is there no platform? or will people be waiting on the street, so that even more money can be funneled into finch and Sheppard?

Bathurst and King has a fully separated streetcar platform that was just rebuilt this past summer.
 
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In theory, I agree with the idea of greater spacing than the existing TC plan for Eglinton. In practice, I have some trouble seeing how to eliminate 50% of the stops. My frame of reference on this subject is Bloor West Village, and on a map Jane/Runnymede/High Park/Keele is too many stops for a 2km stretch of "rapid transit". But I would have a difficult time eliminating any of those stops. Maybe the lesson is, don't assume that eliminating LRT stops after the fact will be politically palatable; get the stop spacing right the first time.

What makes it hard is that the stops average 666m, rather than 1000m. Therefore, one side is short changed more than the other. Looking at it on a map, High Park could probably go as it is much closer to Keele than Runnymede is to Jane.

(EDIT: I am aware of the condos which have sprung up around the High Park subway station. However, they are still mostly within accessible walking distance to Keele, and the station receives 33% less traffic than Runnymede and Keele (10,000 vs 15,000 respectively))

Sub-800m is too tight outside the central business district, this includes old Toronto. Sub-800m on so-called rapid transit in Scarborough is just idiotic.
 
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How is there no platform? or will people be waiting on the street, so that even more money can be funneled into finch and Sheppard?

Bathurst and King has a fully separated streetcar platform that was just rebuilt this past summer.

That platform was not there before so there is no rebuild. You can confirm this by viewing Google maps. There was no reconstruction/replacement.
 
BMO:

pretty sure underground platforms do not have salt and the elements exposed to them, hence it is much cheaper to constantly keep scrubbing and cleaning a tile or granite surface underground than having to spend money and replace the entire platform like is the current practice with above ground streetcar stops i.e. king and bathurst.

Actually, water intrusion is a major problem with underground structures and it ails a lot of the existing subways stations. Also, I highly doubt there are any cost savings in terms of cleaning and maintenance - and do remember, a good number of original stations along YUS have been renovated, and it isn't cheap. Plus there is the considerable maintenance cost of mechanical and other systems (e.g. escalators, fire/safety, ventilation) to consider.

AoD
 
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That platform was not there before so there is no rebuild. You can confirm this by viewing Google maps. There was no reconstruction/replacement.

what are you talking about? I've worked at Front and Bathurst for the past 6 years and it's been there this whole time. The platform is not new. They have been there for years at King and Queen. If you go to king and bathurst today, you will see brand new shelters put in when they rebuilt it. I really don't understand what your argument is, when anyone who goes by this place knows this. but this is besides the point.

look at this picture which attributes higher ridership because of faster speeds (due to grade separation)

117cumd.jpg
 
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what are you talking about? I've worked at Front and Bathurst for the past 6 years and it's been there this whole time. The platform is not new. They have been there for years at King and Queen.

I was talking about the southbound platform that was added?
 

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